Vital Signs II
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AuthorTopic: Vital Signs II
topic by
Observer
4/2/2002 (15:57)
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Thank you to all who responded. However, I don't think the question has been answered.

I agree with William's point. Oil is of paramount importance. It could really shut down the world (and the US economy). But then, why piss off the people who could do this to you (the arab countries).

About AZCowBoy's point, the Mossad does a lot of the CIA's dirty work. That is surely a great asset but is it impossible to find a replacement for (the CIA could find another vendor for themselves, like the mercenary armies in Africa)? One certainly can not find a replacement to oil in the short or medium term.

About JC's point on Israel being a democracy, I absolutely don't buy that. The US did not shut off the funding pipeline for the IRA even though Britain is a democracy and an important ally. And the US has a consistent history of supporting Pakistan with arms, tanks, and F-16s(a military dictatorship) and China (a Communist dictatorship) against India, the world's largest democracy. The Pakistani nuclear and ballistic missle programs are made in China but the US conveniently looked the other way.

And why are we assuming that democracy for Arabs is a bad thing? Sure they hate the US, but their sustenance depends on export of oil, no matter who is in power in the arab lands. And the west is the largest oil market. So, necessicity would dictate that the oil keeps flowing.

Pissing off the arabs on the other hand could very well turn that off. Remember, Saudi Arabia did precisely that during the 1973 Arab-Israeli war and sent the US in an oil shock.

It seems to me that the US is backing the wrong side (all moral imparatives aside) since it is hurting the US' vital national interests.

So, why syupport Israel unconditionally? Your thoughts are welcome.
reply by
JC
4/2/2002 (16:24)
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a) They are a democracy that shares most of our values. Many more than other countries in the region.

b) The Jews clearly control the entire world, much less our feeble little country, the USA

c) The Arab states are likely to attack Israel in an effort to destroy her, if they think they have an opportunity to succeed. This attempt would bring about what is called the Samson Scenario: Israel would be forced to defend herself with nuclear weapons and would take down the entire region as she goes down. This would majorly mess up the rest of the world. Therefore, it is in all of our interests to make sure that Israel is strong enough militarily to deter military adventures by her neighbors, and at the same time create an independent, demilitarized state for the Palestinian people so they can live lives free of occupation.
reply by
Observer
4/2/2002 (18:09)
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Thanks for your posting. However, it raises some more questions.

The point about the Samson Scenario is interesting (I was not aware of it, but I don't claim to be too well-informed). But then why did US policymakers allow for Israel to build nuclear weapons if those weapons could be used to hold US energy supply hostage? (Israeli scientists trained in Los Alamos before they built Dimona). But even if the Samson Scenario was realistic, what would be the result if Israel take the region down. It would be a disruption in or destruction of the world oil supply. The arabs can do that anyway, without going to war with Israel. And why do we assume that the arabs are inherently suicidal and insane. Deterrance works. It worked with the Soviet Union and it has worked with Saddam Hussein who did not use chemical weapons on the US forces during the gulf war. The same principal will ensure that the arab governments will not try to destroy Israel which will surely trigger a nuclear reaction.

To your other point, the whole world can not be owned by the Jews (I know you were being rhetorical) or the europeans would not be so incensed at the US mid east policy. Infact, they are so upset precisely because Israeli policy could potentially threaten their oil supply. Europe gets most of their oil from the mid east (as does Japan and asia). Most of the US oil does not come from the mid east. And it is very unlikely that Israel has much influence over asia, already a bigger economic bloc than europe.

reply by
William
4/3/2002 (19:34)
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Israel is a democracy in a limited sense. However, millions of Arabs have not been allowed to vote or have their own state, but are required to pay Israeli taxes. Also non-jews, including Christians, have had their land expropriated and are banned from buying land. Israel is a democracy on the old South African model, certainly not the model of any other democratic nation.

The Samson scenario seems ridiculous to me. It is highly unlikely we will ever see another all out Arab-Israeli war, because they know they could never win. Even if the Arabs build nukes, they don’t want to get nuked in return. I doubt we’d even see a limited war like in 1973 when the object was to strengthen negotiating power.

Observer, I don’t think you completely understand the oil issue. Oil entering the world supply lowers prices world-wide even if not shipped directly to the US. Therefore it is important to us that the Mid-east oil keeps flowing. Is democracy bad in the mid-east? Most Arabs, excluding the privileged, would like it, but it is the worst thing that could happen for oil prices.

You say that an Arab democracy would also ship oil for economic reasons. They would ship some oil definitely, but they would cut back to a large extent. This is the heart of why the Arab people hate their royal families, why the Iranian royal family was overthrown in 1979 and why the US has done everything possible to prevent further royal revolutions in the Gulf. The Arab people feel that their oil is being exploited by the West and would want to cut back shipments regardless of our support for Israel. They also see that most of these profits go to the royals who are corrupt and wasteful beyond imagination. The royals could care less about the Palestinians except that the issue creates popular unrest at home.

The royals keep shipments high, not so much because they need the money, but to keep in power. We ship a lot of weapons to the gulf royals, and to Iran before 1979, along with providing political and intelligence support in order to keep them in power. When the Shah was overthrown in a national popular revolution, a religious limited democratic regime came to power, that was extremely popular. The Arabs in the other gulf states would like to see a similar overthrow of the royals in which an Islamic state with a limited democracy would cut back oil shipments. In short the royal families are walking a tight rope between the US and their own people.

Our support of Israel backfired on us big time in 1973. I think it was a shock to the leadership in this country, because I doubt anyone thought oil prices could shoot up so dramatically. It did however, reinforce the need to have control over the Gulf. We’d have a permanent semi-embargo if the Saud family collapsed along with others in the region.

The point about the Mossad doing dirty work for the CIA is also an excellent point.

The defense industry loves Israel. We ship them tons of weapons, we also ship weapons to other Mid-east states because of Israel. Congress bans the US weapons industry from shipping to many countries with poor human rights records. Israel serves the lucrative role of arms broker for our defense industry to Nicaragua, Honduras, El Salvador and Zimbabwe among many others. They even tried to ship the AWACS to China last year. Congress threatened to cut off aid and of course the Israelis backed down.