a peacefull view and a reply
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topic by
egyptian
4/2/2002 (18:43)
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http://www.msnbc.com/news/732509.asp

By Michael Lerner
SPECIAL TO MSNBC.COM

April 2 — If we didn’t recognize it before, the acts of terror on Passover and since should convince us that the cycle of Mideast violence is out of control now, and it may yet spin into a regional war. Responsibility lies on both sides, and the first step toward sanity is to reject the mythologies that tell the story in ways that make one side the “good guys” and the other “the evil villain.” A second step is for the United States to participate in an international peacekeeping force to separate and protect the Israeli and Palestinian people.

JEWS DID NOT return to the Middle East to be servants of Western colonialism, as some on the left and in the Arab world have claimed. Jews were jumping from the burning buildings of Europe, and we did so out of desperation. But in the process, we landed on the backs of Palestinians already living there, and we hurt them. Their unjustified attempts to keep us from returning to our ancient homeland, when it was we who were refugees, crawling out of the gas chambers and crematoria of Europe, created the climate that led to Israel expelling hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their homes in 1948.

Survey results tallied every 60 seconds. Live Votes reflect respondents' views and are not scientifically valid surveys.

When, after the war was ended, Israel refused to allow the refugees to return to their homes, Palestinians resorted to violence and acts of terror. And because we Jews could never acknowledge that we (unintentionally, but still really) had hurt these people, our response was to see these acts of violence as part of the long and essentially unchangeable history of non-Jewish hatred toward us, something that we had no part in causing and from which we could only seek protection through military means. Each act of violence was interpreted through the framework of our 2,000-year history of oppression by (primarily Christian) others, and so we did not allow ourselves to hear the stories of the suffering of the Palestinian people.
We momentarily transcended that dynamic in 1993 when the Oslo Accord offered the only possible solution: an exchange in which Israel would retain control over 78 percent of pre-1948 Palestine and the Palestinians would get 22 percent (the pre-’67 borders of Israel and the West Bank). General of the army Yitzhak Rabin made the case clearly: the West Bank and Gaza offered no military security for Israel, as the Scud missiles from Iraq sailing into Tel Aviv during the Gulf War had demonstrated. When that was being implemented, terror declined as hope shaped both sides.
But after a right-wing Israeli murdered Rabin, subsequent governments increased the settlers on the West Bank from 120,000 to 200,000, giving Palestinians solid evidence that the land seizures, house demolitions and torture that escalated along with the occupation were likely to increase.

Instead of offering to implement the previous agreement, Ehud Barak sought to reduce the percentage of land being given back to the Palestinians even further, and demanded that Arafat sign an agreement that would claim to be the “final resolution” of all issues though it did not provide for reparations or anything else for the 3 million Palestinians living in exile. No Palestinian leader could sign those terms, but by the time a more reasonable deal had been worked out at Taba, Ariel Sharon and Yasser Arafat had managed to escalate their public struggle into overt violence that had spun out of control.
Sharon had never accepted Oslo, and his current strategy is to destroy the Palestinian Authority so that Hamas can take over. With Hamas in control of the West Bank and Gaza, articulating its hateful strategy of destruction of Israel, there will no longer be any international pressure to constrain Sharon from his ultimate goal: reconsquest of the entire West Bank and Gaza and creation of yet more settlements.

Hence, the current reality: Hamas wants to see Arafat destroyed, so they attack Israeli civilians; Sharon wishes to see Arafat destroyed so he retaliates not against Hamas, but against the Palestinian Authority, claiming that they could have stopped Hamas’ violence. Meanwhile, kept under house arrest by Israeli tanks, exposed as powerless to defend his own people, Arafat is in no mood to use the limited influence he does have to fight against the Palestinian militants who today seem to be the only force that can effectively stand up to Israel and provide some modicum of protection.

THE U.S. AS MIDDLEMAN
The only way to change these dynamics if for Americans to insist that our government support (rather than block, as it does now) the creation of an international force that could go into the West Bank and Gaza, separate the two sides, and provide protection for both. Once Palestinians felt safe from future military attack by Israel, we would have the leverage to demand that Arafat jail and punish those who have supported the outrageous attacks against Israeli civilians. Until that safety is provided, calls for Arafat to do anything to stop Palestinian violence are unlikely to be taken very seriously.


Both sides are acting immorally and self-destructively. Still, Americans, riddled with (quite appropriate) guilt for thousands of years of Christian anti-Semitism, are reluctant to challenge the Jewish people today.
Yet many Israeli peace activists are trying to communicate a different message: the real pro-Israel forces are those who are willing to use their influence and power to stop Israel from acting in ways that self-destructively decrease their actual security. To be pro-Israel today is to be willing to challenge Israeli policies and align with the growing number of Israelis who see, in the words of former Israeli justice minister Yossi Beilin, that “the Israeli war against the terrorist infrastructure will give birth to more terrorists because the terrorist infrastructure lies within people’s hearts.”

THE FIRST STEP IS OURS
The first step to ending the violence requires decisive action from the United States, and that will only happen when you let your elected officials know that you want that level of U.S. involvement.

This is a moment to separate the two sides, impose an end to the violence, and then begin to work on ending the occupation, providing reparations for Palestinians, and providing genuine security for Israel. And we must explain to Palestinians why these larger goals can only be achieved when the Palestinian movement begins to follow the path of Martin Luther King Jr. and Mahatma Gandhi - principled and firm commitment to nonviolence as the path to freedom.
The first steps, however, are ours. The violence must end. That can only happen by decisive action from the United States and that will only happen when you let your elected officials know that you want that level of U.S. involvement
end of article.
----------------------------------------------
please consider this:-

when I was young .. I kept hearing of the story of that nice Jewish lady who used to live at our street in Alexandria .. Egypt.
She actually came to our neighbor’s house one day and asked him for protection against her son.
You see her son got involved with that 'gang' and he insisted on having the poor old lady carry her stuff and go with him to the so called promise land. She tried to resist.. but then 1948 happened and the Arab world woke up to a slap in the face with a thousands of Palestinians refugees all over our gates.
I am kind of glad that my neighbor told her to take her son and leave ...
For you see my neighbor was a very wise man . he knew that the Zionist gangs those days were bombing the Jewish places in Egypt to force the Jewish population to leave.
he also knew .. that Britain were really looking the other way while zionist gangs were illegally smuggling humans into Britain ruled Palestine.
You see he liked that old lady she was “respectable' that was the only measure you apply to qualify weather or not to help your neighbor on those days. He figured her son would take care of her in Palestine .. and he would have left her alone any ways if she did not agree after all he was recruited by a very sexy young Jewish girl too.
My neighbor were Christian .. i am a Moslem ..
his son died in 1967 war .. when Israel hit the Arab armies while the air planes were in there airports sitting on the ground.
I wonder if that lady's son was driving the American bombers!
I wonder what my neighbor would have done had he known.
I wonder if the lady is still alive . I wonder if her son ever gave a hoot about her.
peace
reply by
JC
4/2/2002 (22:13)
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Where is the Arab Michael Lerner?

I agree with Rabbi Lerner on almost all his points, but the sad thing is that any Arab intellectual that is willing to be as honest as he is about what's wrong with the Palestinians and their Arab supporters is bullied into silence or killed.

Egyptian - Please excuse me for getting personal here, but you are a perfect example of an arrogant, defensive Arab who is only willing to find fault with the Jews and Israel, but not willing to recognize the entire truth.

Again, where is your Michael Lerner? If you had some you would find the road to peace much less steep.
reply by
egyptian
4/2/2002 (22:17)
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jc you have any thing relevant you want to say ?
reply by
egyptian
4/2/2002 (22:22)
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'arrogant, defensive Arab '
well , once again Egyptians are not Arabs .. And Arabs can not be Anti Semitic.
Since they come from Sam too.
You know what .. if that is what I get of telling you of a personal experience ..
I can see why Peace Now is only a cosmetic tactic. I guess Israel is a true democracy for Jews then. If you are the Educated civilized one , petty the Palestinians indeed.
Peace
reply by
JC
4/2/2002 (22:41)
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Egyptian - It is you who continually avoid to address or respond to any of my questions. You simply dismiss them without any discussion. Don't want to think about the message, then simply attack the messenger.

My apologies for confusing Egyptians with Arabs. It is clearly a debatable topic as you can see on http://www-ec.njit.edu/~dae8808/MAG/ISSUE1/Perspectives/AfricansOrArabs.html

Egyptians: Africans or Arabs?
While Egypt is geographically located in the northeast tip of Africa, it is considered
a country of the Middle East. Let's take a look at what some Egyptians
define as Arab, and their choice of cultural association!





How do you define the term Arab?





Mohamed Ismaiil
Age: 18
Country of Origin: Egypt
'Arab means someone that is descendant of the Arab tribes...
or someone who speaks the language... or someone that associates
him/herself with the culture and society.'

Catherine
Age: 18
Country of Origin: Egypt
'Anybody who speaks the Arabic language, practices the
Arabic culture, and geographically-wise, it's the Middle
Eastern countries.'

Mohamed Kholaif
Age: 29
Country of Origin: Egypt
'All the people whose native tongue is Arabic, whatever they are-
Muslim or Christian. Born in Arabic land or non Arabic land. Can
speak Arabic or not.'

Yasmene Shalaby
Age: 19
Country of Origin: Egypt
'People who speak Arabic, or are from a country on
the Arabian peninsula, or from an Arab country or
are descendants of an Arab people.'


As an Egyptian, do you consider yourself African or
Middle Eastern/Arab? Why? What is your association based on?

Yasmene Shalaby
Age: 19
'I never thought about it. I check whichever box is on
the sheet, but I guess I prefer Arab/Middle Easterner
because that reflects the culture association.'


Mohamed Ismaiil
Age: 18
'I consider myself Arab considering that I have a great deal of
blood from that origin, also because we have absorbed almost their
entire culture. We have to remember that the Egyptians originally were
not Arabs, but now, they have been assimilated by the Arabs over the years
and now I think that most Egyptians consider themselves Arabs as I do.
However, scholarship-wise in the States, I consider myself African-American, which I technically am...cause being Arab does not reak u any benefits in the educational world.'

Catherine
Age: 18
'I consider myself Middle Eastern; I always tend to use Middle Eastern to describe my origin. That's because Middle Eastern means Arabic and at the same time it describes the location of my country.
I do believe that Egypt is in the 'continent' of Africa, but I don't
consider myself African because of the difference in cultures,
physical looks..etc.

Dalya Ewais
Age: 21
'While Egypt is geographically in Africa, that mere fact does not make me African. I consider myself an Arab because I share more with the Arabs than I do with the Africans in terms of cultural practices, language, etc. Basing my cultural association
on the fact that I share the same continent is no basis at all.
For instance, I was born in America. Does that make me any
less Egyptian?'

FYI...
Legally, the race category for Egyptians
(and more generally, those from the Middle East) is Caucasian and not African-American.
This is why the African-American claim on applications (such as scholarships, financial aid, etc.) is invalid and often denied.

reply by
egyptian
4/2/2002 (22:51)
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Hmm .. do I debate my own race with a moran ?
I think not.
you know what .. read a bible or a torah then debate me .. sense encarta is too expensive I guess.
Peace
reply by
JC
4/2/2002 (22:57)
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I am not looking for a debate, but let me point out that once again you resort to attacks on me instead of addressing the issues.

I could care less what you think of yourself as: egyptian or african or arab. I simply wanted to point out that it is an issue that is debated. Those words are not mine, but those of the people interviewed.
reply by
egyptian
4/2/2002 (23:06)
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You think people opinions about there cultural has any impact on a factual find such as their RACE?
Of course its Arabic in culture since the Arabs invaded hundereds of years ago .
But Egypt is like 7000 years old .. we are mostly Muslims now .. and all Arab speaking as a first language.
I mentioned that fact in context of you calling me “'arrogant, defensive Arab '”
That is because you have problems calling me an Egyptians..
What kind of problems? Biblical ones. And I do understand.
But the horrific events taking place right now is really related to those same BIBLICAL fears. And what ever the reasons you have for your politics .. You are hurting people .. as well as your selves .
A good start is to agree on the facts. Something I feel you are not ready for .
Or else you would not have mention Daniel pipes .. and you would not have jumped into this posting .. since this was .. BY FAR .. my most peaceful posting yet!
THE STORY I MENTIONED IS REAL AND TELLS YOU THAT ZIONIZM ONLY USED RELEGION .. NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
Which makes a very good case NOT TO bomb synagogues like people are doing now in France.

Peace
reply by
JC
4/2/2002 (24:10)
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Egyptian - You are reading more into my use of the Arab than there is. Seriously.

As for the distinction between Judaism and Zionism, I agree that they are not the same thing. I, like Michael Lerner, however, consider myself a Zionist and a Palestinian Nationalist. Just as there are fantical Muslims who twist Islam, so there are fanatical Zionist who twist Zionism.
reply by
egyptian
4/2/2002 (24:22)
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Would you accept one state ? in palestine ?
with the name palestine in arabic and isreal in latin ?
100 % democracy . equal vote .. no ethnic divisions ?
Please be honest.
then try to give me a reason for your answer other than .. You do not trust any one but your own.
peace
reply by
Ozzie Hooper
4/2/2002 (24:25)
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JC
Insecure and hateful people find it necessary to tear other people down and call them names. The article Egyptian posted was a good read. It's a start to see oneself in other people's place. I agree with you there are no Arabic Michael Lerners that you can see but many do exist. Most Arabs want freedom from their oppressive U.S.- backed governments. They want free speech. And one day their will be known Arab Michael Lerners.

You accuse Egyptian of being an 'arrogant defensive Arab'... do you realize that people (mostly children) call eachother names to feel superior. What do you get off on listing names, ages, and race. Who cares what nationality, race, or color Arabs are. We are human beings just like you. We must get past the name calling in order to meet midway.
reply by
JC
4/2/2002 (24:32)
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Like I said, I am a Zionist and a Palestinian Nationalist. I am totally opposed to a one state solution. I think that this is a trap and a recipe for disaster. It wouldn't be genocide, it would be birthicide.
I think that Palestinians would intentionally attempt to have many more babies than Israelis and assume a majority that would most likely oppress the Jewish minority. There is a long precedence for this in Mid-East history.

I think each people needs it own state where it can celebrate the birth of every child and not see it as an existential threat.

I think the 100% Democratic Palestinian and Israeli states should work together to support one another and create a symbiotic relationship, but with their own states.

reply by
JC
4/2/2002 (24:36)
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Ozzie - I couldn't agree with you more that we are all human beings. I really don't give a hoot as to what nationality race or color Egyptian is. I think you misread the intent of my comment.

Your credibility in making such self-righteous comments would be greatly enhanced if you spoke out against folks like AZCowboy who repeatedly makes comments about Jews and Israelis that if were said about Arabs you'd be up in arms about.

Peace.
reply by
egyptian
4/2/2002 (24:59)
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I am so glad we are finally getting some fixed points here. Now we can talk ..
Just like I expected, ..
Your refusal of one state is based on racial mistrust .. [ AND TODAY YOU HAVE A LOT OF REASONS TO BE WEARY INDEED]
but NOW THAT WE HAVE ESTABLISHED THAT ..

Does not the article.. the subject of this thread before we started down that road. Does not it look a little hmm.. WRONG? ( I can not be more politically correct in describing that sentence .. there comes a time when you have to tell some one there self delusions are fatal!)
-Mr lerner said ---

JEWS DID NOT return to the Middle East to be servants of Western colonialism, as some on the left and in the Arab world have claimed. Jews were jumping from the burning buildings of Europe, and we did so out of desperation .

How could that be true ? yet it is you today who are claiming racial mistrust ?
Imagine having a guest in your house getting in by force ,, kicking have your family out .. then insisting that you sleep in the yard from now on because hey does not trust you.

That is what happened? and now you do not believe that your host country that you ran too is hmm ... racially trustworthy ?
----
the second part of my post PROVES TO YOU THAT YOU ARE NOT JUSTIFIED IN YOUR ENTIRE HYPOSTHESIS SINCE THAT MIXED RACE COUNTRY EXISTED BEFORE AND IT WILL EXIST AFTERWARDS ..
ZIONEST blew up national unity when they started sucking Jews from all over the world .. even ours to be concentrated in Israel and YOU USED TERROR .. no doubt about that .. you started with terror .. and today you are ending up with it too .
and if my original post was not DIRECT enough for you .. Excuse my language .. after all English is my third language.
Look in my example .. the Arab summit basically told you
TAKE THE GOD DAMN HOUSE AND LET ME GET SOME MONEY FOR IT AND
PROMISE ME NOT TO TAKE MY YARD TOO >> AFTER I BUILD IT FROM SCRATCH ..
AND WHILE YOU ARE AT IT …TAKE YOUR DOG HOUSES OFF MY YARD PLEASE.
You see .. if you are saying no to that .. .. Either me or on of my family will burn that house down .. and that house contains the second holiest spot of my religion too …

peace
reply by
JC
4/3/2002 (1:07)
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I am for a 2-State Solution with Jerusalem as the capital of both states and with Muslim sovereignty over the Al Aksa and Jewish Sovereignty over the Western Wall.

Call me a racist or whatever makes you feel good, but it is Palestinians who are calling Black Jews 'Nigger' and 'Gorilla', and it is Israel who is opening its arms to Africans.

Like I said Egyptian, the One state solution is a trap to get rid of the Jewish State. You may want that, but as someone who wants both a Palestinian State and Jewish State, I am opposed to it.

Peace. Out.
reply by
egyptian
4/3/2002 (1:14)
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I am ok with you wanting both states .
I even think you are courageous to think like that while watching the blood of your own being spelled .
Just do not act as if you are giving them anything .. 2 states would be one state extra that what is deserved.. You come as refugees you get hospitality.. you come as invaders you get war ..
Like I told you JC in another post.. stop wasting your time here justifying Sharon massacres. If you believe what just posted. you should start advocating the 2 states solution before Sharon Netanyahu gang makes it impossible.
The whole region is boiling and YOU CAN DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT .
I have my own problems and I do not need yours .. or very soon we will all wake up in a mist of ghost town that used to be the middle east.
Peace
reply by
JC
4/3/2002 (13:05)
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Egyptian - I can't tell you how much easier it would be for me and other Jews to protest Sharon and seek an alternative path if the Arab world were to condemn the use of terror and force the Palestinians back to the bargaining table. All these yahoos urging the Palestinians to kill as many Jews as possible don't seem to get the boomerang effect this has. These folks justify Sharon's actions. If the Palestinians really desire peace and an end to the occupation, and not the destruction of Israel, they should cease the daily murder of Israeli civillians, develop a much more effective non-violent protest, and reach out to the Israeli middle and left to bring about a 2-state solution. If the Palestinians continue down the path they are on now, there will be no middle or left for them to reach out to. The leadership on both sides is lacking, but it is particularly appalling on the Palestinian side. Do you not agree? I know Mubarak does.
reply by
egyptian
4/3/2002 (13:47)
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I am trying to understand your position .. but I am not able to.
How come you are happy enough to link your future to what other people say and do ?
And how does any one with a home have the right to tell the homeless I do not like your methods ?
Read the post ' how to start an uprise please'
I would rather have peace no matter what actions you or any one else takes .. It is MY interests that I should be loyal to before being loyal to some one else.
If Isreal stopped building settlements during the 93/2000 negotiations the arab countries would have been doing more than just condemning suiscide bombers.! and there would have been much less of them anyways. Unless the racist that you have confessed to be keep assuming that palestinians are killing you and themselves for fun or because that is there nature .
Which is Mr daniel Pipes arguement.
Here is how I see this .. You are allowing your hawks to insist on wining a war that they have started by killing rabin. You approve of this war in conditions that are not winnable. This is not an honorable war you are getting into. It is a war of self delusion.
Only criminals that refuse to confess to there orginal crime should be supportive of this war .. People who are trying to ' make it right' should not be shocked by violence into following the crowd. It is dangerous.
OOh and mubarak just froze relations with Isreal to a minimum If you are reading the news!. As if we had any since sharon got to power.
reply by
JC
4/3/2002 (14:05)
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Egyptian - No time to write personal message. Will follow up later. Please read following editorial by Tom Friedman. I agree with him 100%.



April 3, 2002
The Hard Truth
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
A terrible disaster is in the making in the Middle East. What Osama bin Laden failed to achieve on Sept. 11 is now being unleashed by the Israeli-Palestinian war in the West Bank: a clash of civilizations.

In the wake of repeated suicide bombings, it is no surprise that the Israeli Army has gone on the offensive in the West Bank. Any other nation would have done the same. But Ariel Sharon's operation will succeed only if it is designed to make the Israeli-occupied territories safe for Israel to leave as soon as possible. Israel's goal must be a withdrawal from these areas captured in the 1967 war; otherwise it will never know a day's peace, and it will undermine every legitimate U.S. effort to fight terrorism around the globe.

What I fear, though, is that Mr. Sharon wants to get rid of Mr. Arafat in order to keep Israeli West Bank settlements, not to create the conditions for them to be withdrawn.

President Bush needs to be careful that America doesn't get sucked into something very dangerous here. Mr. Bush has rightly condemned Palestinian suicide bombing as beyond the pale, but he is not making clear that Israel's war against this terrorism has to be accompanied by a real plan for getting out of the territories.

Why? Because President Bush, like all the other key players, doesn't want to face the central dilemma in this conflict — which is that while Israel must get out of the West Bank and Gaza, the Palestinians cannot, at this moment, be trusted to run those territories on their own, without making them a base of future operations against Israel. That means some outside power has to come in to secure the borders, and the only trusted powers would be the U.S. or NATO.

Palestinians who use suicide bombers to blow up Israelis at a Passover meal and then declare 'Just end the occupation and everything will be fine' are not believable. No Israeli in his right mind would trust Yasir Arafat, who has used suicide bombers when it suited his purposes, not to do the same thing if he got the West Bank back and some of his people started demanding Tel Aviv.

'The only solution is a new U.N. mandate for U.S. and NATO troops to supervise the gradual emergence of a Palestinian state — after a phased Israeli withdrawal — and then to control its borders,' says the Middle East expert Stephen P. Cohen.

People say that U.S. troops there would be shot at like U.S. troops in Beirut. I disagree. U.S. troops that are the midwife of a Palestinian state and supervise a return of Muslim sovereignty over the holy mosques in Jerusalem would be the key to solving all the contradictions of U.S. policy in the Middle East, not new targets.

The Arab leaders don't want to face this hard fact either, because most are illegitimate, unelected autocrats who are afraid of ever speaking the truth in public to the Palestinians. The Arab leaders are as disingenuous as Mr. Sharon; he says ending 'terrorism' alone will bring peace to the occupied territories, and the Arab leaders say ending 'the occupation' alone will end all terrorism.

Like Mr. Sharon, the Arab leaders need to face facts — that while the occupation needs to end, they independently need to address issues like suicide terrorism in the name of Islam. As Malaysia's prime minister, Mahathir Mohamad, courageously just declared about suicide bombing: 'Bitter and angry though we may be, we must demonstrate to the world that Muslims are rational people when fighting for our rights, and do not resort to acts of terror.'

If Arab leaders have only the moral courage to draw lines around Israel's behavior, but no moral courage to decry the utterly corrupt and inept Palestinian leadership, or the depravity of suicide bombers in the name of Islam, then we're going nowhere.

The other people who have not wanted to face facts are the feckless American Jewish leaders, fundamentalist Christians and neoconservatives who together have helped make it impossible for anyone in the U.S. administration to talk seriously about halting Israeli settlement-building without being accused of being anti-Israel. Their collaboration has helped prolong a colonial Israeli occupation that now threatens the entire Zionist enterprise.

So there you have it. Either leaders of good will get together and acknowledge that Israel can't stay in the territories but can't just pick up and leave, without a U.S.-NATO force helping Palestinians oversee their state, or Osama wins — and the war of civilizations will be coming to a theater near you.
reply by
egyptian
4/3/2002 (15:11)
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You can not start building on a shaky hell hole and end up with a solid structure.
Mr FRIEDMAN said '
In the wake of repeated suicide bombings, it is no surprise that the Israeli Army has gone on the offensive in the West Bank. Any other nation would have done the same. But Ariel Sharon's operation will succeed only if it is designed to make the Israeli-occupied territories safe for Israel to leave as soon as possible. Israel's goal must be a withdrawal from these areas captured in the 1967 war; otherwise it will never know a day's peace, and it will undermine every legitimate U.S. effort to fight terrorism around the globe. '
I know you are not intersted in truth JC but can you Guess what is wrong with his foundation ?
Peace.

reply by
JC
4/3/2002 (15:20)
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Ah, it was built on land that Palestinians used to occupy?
That Sharon intends to stay in the territories?

I dunno - you tell me.


FYI - I've already written letters to the Israeli consulate urging them to not remain in the territories any longer than they need to in order to neutralize the terrorist network that is continually attacking Israeli civillians.
reply by
egyptian
4/3/2002 (15:23)
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Well ..
- Israel is the only nation left in the world today that is occupying another.
- Israel is 100 % responsible for failure of peace ( they have power and they haggled over settlements for a long time while Palestinians conditions got worse to the degree that peace became a bad word in the camps. Martyrdom is the word now .. thanks to People like freedman who start there peaceful seeming views with the biggest loudest lie you can imagine ...
- Any one who believes a military action in an occupied area then withdrawal achieves peace should be locked in the crazy hospital. ask France, England, Germany, Jenkies khan.
- A 5 minutes speech of Sharon on same day the Arab league gave its offer would have ENDED this whole thing . some thing along thes lines'
We believe the Arab proposal is a starting point to a solution we can live with .. how ever we will not start anything until Palestinians stop killing our civilians , we will immediately stop building and new settlements and we will withdraw our army to our settlements borders preparing for later dismantlement once the peace deal gets finalized.'
- Pipes and Friedman would say this is Israel surrendering .. consider this..
- THOSE ESXACT WORDS WERE SAID IN 1979 by begen to Sadat again in oslo and again in 1992 .. It was ISREAL who kept building the settlement.
- I have to come to conclusion that this is classic haggling .. over seizing yet more land from Palestinians .. but really how much blood is ok to get a better deal ?
To believe that anyone in Israel wants peace but yet No one dare make a speech like that is beyond me .
Peace
reply by
egyptian
4/3/2002 (15:37)
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by the way .. and you are only going to settle for my word at this.
If things were reversed and Palestinians were combing the Jewish ghetto looking for the Zionist activist by executing mass punishment for the whole population .. Rounding up a wide age group, shooting old ladies dead for breaking care few on a hospital emergency room by 5 minutes .
I would have spoke against it too .. I have to by my religion. Even if it ment my own death. The decision to send a reserved unit of an army of people just have witnessed mass murder of there citizens into a civilian population is not just idiotic .. it is criminal .. just like annexation of the settlements just like expulsion of Palestinians in 1948 .
When will so called moderate Zionists start talking against crimes AS THEY ARE BEING COMMITED .. Instead of 30 years later as they are justifying today's crime and in same breath apologizing for yesterday's ?
reply by
JC
4/3/2002 (15:46)
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Egyptian - I think that the Saudi Proposal continues to hold some promise, but you majorly oversell it. On the same day that Abdullah gave his speech, a Palestinian suidice bomber walked into a hotel full of family members of previous terror victims, there to celebrate one the Jews holiest days, and blew himself up killing at least 26 people and injuring many others. Or did you forget about this already?

That was the answer to the Palestinian answer to the Saudi proposal, no?

As for your Islamic commandement to save Jews being stalked by genocidal maniacs, looks like your ancestors didn't live up to it too well when my ancestors were actually being stalked by genocidal maniacs. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was big ally of Hitler and helped to enlist the services of thousands of Bosnian Muslim soldiers to assist the Nazis in the extermination of the European Jews.
reply by
egyptian
4/3/2002 (15:56)
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What happened to giving references for your lies so we can take it apart and show you for the liar that you are?
And since when does a single action of a human being worth more than a declared statement of 23 countries? Including Arafat?
Peace Come on .. Have some respect for this forum. This is not fox news or haartz.
Peace

reply by
JC
4/3/2002 (16:20)
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Coming right up. You will of course do me the same honor, no?
reply by
JC
4/3/2002 (16:22)
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http://www.flamemag.dircon.co.uk/yugoslavia_collaboration.htm


During the Second World War in Yugoslavia, as with the Catholic Church in Croatia, many Muslim clerics in Bosnia and Kosovo were willing accomplices in the genocide of the nations Serbian, Jewish and Roma population. From 1941 until 1945, the Nazi-installed regime of Ante Pavelic in Croatia carried out some of the most horrific crimes of the Holocaust (known as the Porajmos by the Roma), killing over 800,000 Yugoslav citizens - 750,000 Serbs, 60,000 Jews and 26,000 Roma. In these crimes, they were helped by Muslim fundamentalists in Bosnia and Kosovo who were openly supported by the Palestinian Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Hajj Amin al-Husseini. A notorious anti-Semite, he openly encouraged Muslims to join Nazi units that would be later implicated in genocide and crimes against humanity - the infamous Hanjar (or Handschar) 13th Waffen SS division. One of these crimes was the The Massacre at Koritska Jama Gorge, in Bosnia during 1941. The Nazi's also established a puppet state in Serbia under General Milan Nedic, who along with the Cetniks also particapated in the Holocaust in wartime Croatia (which included Bosnia) and Serbia.

What united al-Husseini and the Third Reich was a common hatred of the Jewish people. The Nazis had taken al-Husseini under their protection following the wartime invasion of Iraq. He was to spend most of the war living in a luxurious suite at the Hotel Adlon in Berlin. Hitler had enjoyed quite a following among the nationalist youth of Egypt during the war, after Nassiri Nasser, the brother of the future president of Egypt, had published an Arab edition of Mein Kampf in 1939, describing its author as the 'strongest man of Europe'. Not surprisingly, Egypt became like Argentina after the war - a safe haven for SS war criminals who fled there after the war. Many were keen to help President Nasser in his attempts to destroy the State of Israel. There is evidence that the shadowy ODESSA network helped many of them to Egypt. Apart from Syria - who still host the wanted SS war criminal Alois Brunner, it was in Egypt that the Post-war Arab links to the ODESSA network were strongest.

Many of the victims of the Holocaust/Porajmos were murdered in the Second World War's third largest death camp - Jasenovac, where over 200,000 people - mainly Orthodox Serbs met their deaths. Some 240,000 were 'rebaptized' into the Catholic faith by fundamentalist Clerics in 'the Catholic Kingdom of Croatia' as part of the policy to 'kill a third, deport a third, convert a third' of Yugoslavia's Serbs, Jews and Roma in wartime Bosnia and Croatia (The Yugoslav Auschwitz and the Vatican, Vladimar Dedijer, Anriman-Verlag, Freiburg, Germany, 1988).

The most senior Muslim cleric to be involved in the Holocaust/Porajmos was Hajj Amin al-Husseini, who according to the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (Edition 1990, Volume 2, Pages 706 and 707), made a substantial contribution to the Axis war effort by organizing 'in record time' recruitment to Muslim SS units in Croatia that would be involved in some of the worse atrocities of the Second World War.

Altogether, it is estimated that some 20,000 Muslims fought in the Hanjar (Sword) SS Division, which fought against Yugoslav partisans led by General Tito, and carried out police and security details in fascist Hungary. The Nazi's recruited two SS divisions from Yugoslavia's Muslim population: the infamous Bosnian 13th Waffen Hanjar (or Handschar) SS division, and the Albanian Skanderbeg 21st Waffen SS division. SS conscription in Yugoslavia during the war produced 42,000 Waffen SS and police troops

The Encyclopedia of the Holocaust states:

They participated in the massacre of civilians in Bosnia and volunteered to join in the hunt for Jews in Croatia . . . The Germans made a point of publicizing the fact that Husseini had flown from Berlin to Sarajevo for the sole purpose of giving his blessing to the Muslim army and inspecting its arms and training exercises.
reply by
JC
4/3/2002 (16:25)
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And since when does a single action of a human being worth more than a declared statement of 23 countries? Including Arafat?


When those countries, and Arafat in particular condone and encourage the murder of civillians by suicide bombings.

What do you think of Saddam Hussein paying families $25,000 for sacrificing a child to be a suicide bomber?

Wait, I'll go get you a reference.
reply by
JC
4/3/2002 (16:27)
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1423000/1423589.stm

Another reference for the Nazi-Muslim alliance in WW II
reply by
JC
4/3/2002 (16:29)
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http://notendur.centrum.is/~snorrigb/mufti4.htm


However the Mufti was not satisfied with unofficial or moral help from the Nazis. What he wanted were official statements. On 21 July 1937, he tried to establish an even closer relationship with Germany when he paid a visit to the new German Consul-General, Döhle, in Palestine. He repeated his former support for Germany and 'wanted to know to what extent the Third Reich was prepared to support the Arab movement against the Jews'. Though the Germans officially refused to change their policy, they gave more attention to Palestine. In September 1937 two young SS officers, Karl Adolf Eichmann and Herbert Hagen, were sent to Palestine. They had the clear objective of getting 'acquainted with the country and the life and to establish contact with people' among others the Mufti. Although he had already escaped arrests from the British authorities and was not seeking refuge among the Lebanese Muslims he soon found himself well established as a German agent.
They must have got along fine because in 1938, according to Brenner, the Mufti was already on the payroll of Abwehr II, the German counterintelligence and sabotage division. However, Yisraeli dates his reception of German money from as early as 1936. In 1938 the Abwehr II had plans to deliver shiploads of arms to the Mufti, by way of Saudi Arabia and later Iraq. However, they cancelled the cargo because of British protest. Since the Axis could not extend their claws deeper into Palestine's political life, Iraq became the victim through the Mufti's massive organisation. The Iraqis accepted him as an Arab national hero and he soon established his headquarters in Baghdad. The Iraqi government sponsored his activities as well as private 'charity' organisations, special taxation on every Iraqi governmental official, vast sums of Palestinian Arab donations. Added to all this were large contributions from Germany and Italy, Saudi-Arabia and Egypt. This allowed him to live a life in luxury and continue his propaganda against the British and Jews. His propaganda succeeded in establishing a group of pro-Axis officials. Early in 1941 the Mufti and the 'Golden Square' pro-German army officers, led by General Rashid Ali, forced the Iraqi Prime Minister, the pro-British Nuri Said Pasha, to resign. In May he declared jihad against Britain. This meant that the Muslims, at least his supporters, were committed in the fight against Britain, 'the greatest foe of Islam'. The pro-Axis coup had proved successful, but it did not last for long. In a few months British troops had crushed the rebellion and the Mufti had to vanish again; this time his destination was Germany, via Iran, Turkey and Mussolini's office in Rome.




The Mufti in Berlin

The Mufti had blamed the Iraqi Jews for the unsuccessful coup d'etat in Iraq. He called them 'the fifth column in Iraq', the very ones whose ancestors had lived there since the Babylonian captivity. Some Iraqi soldiers and civilians agreed with the Mufti and attacked the Jews who had gathered in public to cheer the new government. The results were horrifying: around 600 Jews, some say 179, were killed, thousands injured in the farhud and 586 shops and warehouses looted. A committee of inquiry, appointed by the Iraqi government, discovered that Haj Amin had been one of the main figures behind the pogrom. Since Haj Amin had adopted the policy of blaming Jews for everything that went wrong, there was no surprise that he allied himself with the Nazi government in Berlin.
On 20 November 1941 the German Foreign Minister, Joachim von Ribbentrop, received him in Berlin. Their talks were the basis for the meeting with Hitler the following day. Details of the Mufti's conversation with hitler were documented in the Mufti's diary and by the Germans, given in the appendix. The main themes were:

The Mufti... The Arabs are Germany's natural friends... They are therefore prepared to cooperate with Germany with all their hearts and stood ready to participate in a war, not only negatively by the commission of act of sabotage and the instigation of revolutions, but also positively by the formation of an Arab Legion... In this struggle, the Arabs were striving for the independence and the unity of Palestine, Syria and Iraq. ... The Führer... Germany was resolved, step by step, to ask one European nation after the other to solve its Jewish problem, and at the proper time direct a similar appeal to non European nations as well.
The Führer did not give, however, official support to the Arab cause, mainly because of 'military reasons'. He proposed, however, as soon as the German armies would pass into the Southern Caucasus the Arabs would be liberated from the British yoke and
Germany's objective would then be solely the destruction of the Jewish element residing in the Arab sphere under the protection of British power... The moment that Germany's tank divisions and air squadrons had made their appearance south of Caucasus, the public appeal requested by the Grand Mufti could go out to the Arab world.
The master plan of Hitler and the Mufti was, thus, first to solve the Jewish problem in Europe and subsequently tackle the problem in the Middle East. The Mufti raised no objections, he fully and gladly participated in the destruction of European Jewry. However, he had to wait until the German armies would enter the Caucasus for the destruction of the Mizrachi Jews who had been living in the Middle East since time immemorial.
The Mufti's part of the deal was to raise support for Germany among the Muslims in the Soviet Union, the Balkans and the Middle East. For that purpose the Germans founded the 'Arab Bureau', under his leadership, in Berlin.
The Mufti's activities in the Third Reich

The Berlin based headquarters of the Mufti controlled almost a world-wide net of collaborators. Sponsored by German money he extended his claws to the Middle East, as well as to other areas where Muslims lived. His main activities were: 1) Radio propaganda; 2) Espionage and fifth column activities in the Middle East; 3) Organising Muslims into military units in Axis-occupied countries; and 4) Establishing some German controlled Arab Legions and the Arab Brigade. He visited the Balkans, had his picture taken saluting Hitler, met Ante Pavelic, the Croatian 'butcher' and dictator, and was even in touch with Emperor Hirohito of Japan. Also, he was in charge of supervising Axis propaganda to Muslims all over the world and

himself went on the radio on several occasions and his broadcasts were among the most violent pro-Axis utterances ever produced. He had at his disposal no less than six 'freedom stations'... urging the Arabs of Palestine and Moslems all over the world, including those in the United States, to rise against the Allies, join the fifth column, commit acts of sabotage, and kill the Jews... In addition, Haj Amin supplied the Middle East with propaganda papers and pamphlets in Arabic.
His greatest achievement was, however, the recruitment of tens of thousands of the Muslims in Bosnia-Herzegovina and Albania to the Waffen SS. His Arab Legions later participated in massacring tens of thousands of partisan Serbs, Jews and Gypsies. In 1943 there were 20,000 Muslims under arms in 'his' division of the Waffen SS, the Handschar. (See: George Lepre, Himmler's Bosnian Division. The Waffen-SS Handschar Division 1943-1945, Schiffer Military History, Atglen, PA, 1997). Nevertheless, the Balkan adventure was only his spare-time activity because his main interest was the fight against World Jewry. In the annual protest against the Balfour Declaration, which in 1943 was staged in the large Luftwaffe hall in Berlin, the Mufti attacked the 'Anglo-Saxon and Jewish conspiracy' phrase he so frequently used, and said:
The Treaty of Versailles was a disaster for the Germans as well as for the Arabs. But the Germans know how to get rid of the Jews. That which brings us close to the Germans and sets us in their camp is that up to day.
On 1 March 1944 he added in a broadcast from Berlin: 'Arabs! Rise as one and fight for your sacred rights. Kill the Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, history, and religion. This saves your honor.' The Mufti did not only intend to massacre the Yishuv Jewry, his hatred of the World Jewry had already driven him to participate in the Nazi Final Solution.
reply by
JC
4/3/2002 (16:33)
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Regarding Saddam's sponsoring of suicide bombers: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/03/29/1017206152883.html

Price of martyrdom becomes a year's rent
By Paul McGeough
March 30 2002


When the Abu Ali family was presented with a cheque for $US10,000 ($18,700) from Iraq's President, Saddam Hussein, last Sunday to mark the death of their nine-year-old son in the Intifada conflict, they rushed it straight to the bank. The head of the house, 53-year-old Maamoun Fayez, was racked with grief, but for the first time in months he was able to relax. He had been out of work for a long time and, if nothing else, Saddam's money would cover the rent for more than a year, he said.


That's a reasonably high rent for the occupied territories. The Herald has been to the third-floor apartment where more than a dozen of his extended family are squeezed into three small rooms in the city of Tulkarm - it is nothing special. But if the World Bank estimate is that the poverty line in the occupied territories is now $US2 ($3.75) a day, then the Abu Ali family could sustain itself at that meagre level for about 14 months, maybe 18 months in such a big household.


The Iraqi leader has been sending $US10,000 to the families of those who die in the violence since the start of the latest Intifada in September 2000. But at Sunday's presentation of cheques to 47 such families, it was announced that Saddam would send an additional $US15,000 to the families of suicide bombers as an enticement for more to offer themselves.



The family of Wafa Edris, the first woman suicide bomber to strike inside Israel, was rewarded by Saddam before the new $US25,000 figure applied. But at their chaotic home in the West Bank refugee camp called Ama'ari, her 36-year-old brother, Khalil, explained that the cheque would sustain the family for months. Explaining that the house had been trashed by the Israeli military, he said: 'We will have to buy new furniture and none of us has had a job for 12 months or more ... The people who struggle against Israel do not do it for the money from Saddam, but it is good moral support at the time of our loss.'

reply by
egyptian
4/3/2002 (16:56)
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Goodie Goodie ..
Get ready for a history lesson ... Now till I get some time .. here is one considering your first post ... and i have to tell you to keep rtrack of your own postings so you can further under stand the truth. Any non referenced material should be available in your local school history books under relevant subjects.. Not university library level.. but high school level.
Let us start by agreeing on these facts:-

-The first Egyptian president to rule Egypt since Alexander the great conquered Egypt
Was in the year 1952.. his name was mohamemd naguib .. he lasted under 2 month then he resigned and gamal abdel nassir ( who never had a brother publisher .. he was a farmer then an officer) .
-1952 is a full 8 years after end of WWII .
- During WWII Egypt was.. for all practical purposes . A BRITISH COLONY ( even though officially it had an Albanian king from Mohammed Ali¡¦s descendants who was put on Egypt¡¦s thrown after he rebelled against the ottoman Sultan who put him there in the first place. .. This kind of scenario happened a lot in Egypt¡¦s history .. an invader appointed governor decides to keep Egypt¡¦s resources all to him self .. Finding it better to amerce in Egyptian identity rather than his own BOSS) examples of this was Cleopatra /Anthony story. She was Greek and he was a roman.
The last Albanian king ( Farouk) was week and even before him in 1882 England signed a treaty with Egypt ( in spite of its people ) of common defense.
- So unless you think the British governor of Egypt and Sudan ( as the title was called at that time) was harboring Nazi leaders in Egypt or have them on ice till 9 years later nassir arrives and use them that first post is a fip ļ not even a good one.
Who knows ¡K maybe romel was trying to get to Alexandria to be a refugee.
Or Nielsen won the fight in Alexandria just to cover up for ODESSA under ground movement!!!!!!
Now I will give you time to learn all this then we continue.. god welling.
Lookup Romel ( A famous germane army leader that almost made it to Egypt )
Neilsen a famous britis navy commander
Nassir the first Egyptian to have real prolonged rule of Egypt. Since the pharaohs.

How ever do not let this keep you from defending the massacres going on now .. let us occupy our selves in proving negatives so we can make you happy ..
Let me know when you approve of these facts first.

Peace

reply by
JC
4/3/2002 (17:21)
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First off, I apologize for again confusing you with Arabs. Your Egyptian. Got it. I'm slow on this stuff sometimes.

The relevant variable, however, is Muslim. You said you were commanded by your religion. Not your nationality. Given that the above posts deal with Muslims, and more precisely Arabs (Palestinians) I'm not sure what your point is.

Was the Grand Mufti not an Arab and not Muslim?


As for your request for my denunciation of any massacres going on now:
I completely denounce any killing of innocent civillians. I realize that the Israelis need to attack the terrorists that have been launching daily attacks against them and terrorizing their people, but I urge them to take the greatest care possible to avoid killing innocent civillians in the wrong place at the wrong time. I also urge the IDF to remove itself from the territories as soon as possible and get out of the hair of the Palestinian residents.
reply by
egyptian
4/3/2002 (17:30)
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There you go .. you have just said the magic words.
We agree..
If you want to continue the lesson research what i asked and let me know ..
I am trying to set up the time frame first to prove to you that your entire refrence is really a lie.. I would probably also be able to proove why each lie was invented and what it was used for ( at the time of fabrication) to help advance the zionist movement.
Peace
reply by
JC
4/3/2002 (17:35)
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Please enlighten me.
reply by
egyptian
4/3/2002 (17:49)
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If you are not welling to do the research.. I would rather save my breath and time.
Tell me what you agree on so I can continue.
Obviously you can not put a post suggesting that Nazis were hiding in Egypt and fighting against Israel and expect me to answer until you prove to your self that Egypt did not exist as an independent country with the its own will to wheel and deal when Nazi Germany lost the war and maybe it is news for you neither did Israel !!! Because only then we would start checking out Palestinian actions in that time frame.. and why Jerusalem mufti did what he really did. Which in the end has nothing to do with our thread.!

Peace
reply by
egyptian
4/3/2002 (19:56)
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http://www.csmonitor.com/2001/1026/p1s1-uspo.html

This is by far .. one of the most accurate articles I have seen printed in a language other than arabic.
JC this concludes our history lesson.
Peace
reply by
JC
4/3/2002 (20:51)
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Egyptian - What we have here is a failure to communicate. You miss my point about the Grand Mufti supporting Hitler's Nazis. My point was in response to your claim that your religion, Islam, commands you to protect those who are being hunted down by genocidal maniacs. You put this out there, I believe, as some sort of committment of yours to protect those who are being persecuted. I simply pointed out that historically not all Muslims have acted in such a brave and noble manner. In fact, one of the most revered Muslims, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, was an ally of Hitler's Nazis and helped recruit Bosnian Muslim soldiers to hunt down and kill Jews, Serbs, and Roma in WW II.

Do you doubt this?
It is historically well established that this is the case.

Here is a piece from your prefered Christian Science Monitor:

THURSDAY, APRIL 30,1998
INTERNATIONAL
A Palestinian Leader's Quest for What Israel Has

Israel marks 50 years of statehood today. But Faisal Husseini still waits for a homeland.

Ilene R. Prusher
Special to The Christian Science Monitor

JERUSALEM


Faisal Husseini is always asked whether his family blew it.

Fifty years ago, Palestinians under his family's leadership refused the United Nations plan to partition this land into two states, one Jewish and one Arab. He was then just eight years old, but the heir of several generations of Arab leaders in Jerusalem who reject any compromise with Jewish nationalists.

He often responds by comparing Palestinian resistance to Masada and its place in Jewish history. 'Do you believe that the Jewish people were wrong in the battle of Masada? Do you believe [that] without Masada, [they] would be here?' asks Mr. Husseini.

Masada is the desert fortress where a group of 1st century AD Jews barricaded themselves, eventually committing suicide rather than be forced into giving up their religion and national identity at the hands of the Roman conquerors.

'Sometimes the leaders will make a decision, though it will have a high price, but it will defend the people's rights in the future,' Husseini says. He implies that just as Masada came to represent the Jewish fight for survival stretching back 2,000 years, Palestinians would not have remained Palestinians had they not put up a fight against Zionism.

For Husseini to compare the Palestinians' declaration of war to the Jews' suicide reveals a great deal about the state of the Arab-Jewish conflict 50 years later: the degree to which the two sides have come to know each other, and the extent to which many Palestinians have grown pragmatic in the five decades since Israel's establishment.

Many wonder why Palestinians gambled on such high, all-or-nothing stakes rather than accept half a homeland, as the world suggested a half century ago. Hindsight, Husseini reminds such inquirers, is always 20-20. 'It is not fair to come and judge someone in a certain period with the information that you know now,' Husseini says in an interview at Orient House, his family-owned mansion that serves as Palestinian political headquarters in East Jerusalem.


The Husseini pedigree

But people do judge. Israelis often treat Husseini as though, by dint of pedigree, he has blood on his hands. His great uncle, Haj Amin Husseini, was Jerusalem's Grand Mufti, the top Islamic and political leader, from 1921 until the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. He personified bitter Arab opposition to Jewish statehood in Palestine, stirring up anti-Jewish riots and allying himself with the Nazis. Husseini's own father, Abd al-Qadir Husseini, fell in the 1948 war while fighting to recapture Castel, a strategic Arab village near Jerusalem.

reply by
egyptian
4/3/2002 (22:08)
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OOh then I misunderstood you.
In this case You are not pushing a racist agenda .. you are just pushing RELEGIOUS war.
I see the distinction.
Did I really make my self sound that stupid to even claim that ALL MULSIMS .........ANY THING ?.
If muslims where acting the way they are supposed to the entire humanity would have been a muslim humanity .. Just like it will be when jesus win over the anti christ. and all people of the book come to accept him.
Egyptian. I posted an article from islam.com on that.
Peace.
reply by
JC
4/4/2002 (8:17)
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Egyptian - I am not looking to instigate a religious war here. I am simply trying to keep you honest. You make many pronouncements and claims, some of which are false or only partly true.

Lets go back a few posts:
You called me a liar - You said: 'What happened to giving references for your lies so we can take it apart and show you for the liar that you are? '

But you haven't disproved my assertion that Arabs and Muslims were allied with the Nazis and involved in killing Jews in WW II.

The truth is you can't. It is true. The best you can hope to do is evade the truth by changing the topic or attacking me personally.

Why is this relevant?
Because it impugns your credibility. If you wonder why Israelis are so damn suspicious of Egyptians and Arabs, it is because they see on a daily basis lies being told. (See below for some examples from a year ago). If you expect to have a serious dialogue you must be honest and open to questioning some of the 'truths' you hold so dear. I will strive to do the same. I am not an unabashed defender of Israel who thinks that everything the Jewish state is right. I've already listed problems I have with the Israeli state. If we are to ever make progress on peace in the area we will need Arabs and Muslims to be similarly self-critical and open-minded.

Peace.



20 August 2001

Palestinian Lies

Over the years, and especially in the past two years, we have witnessed the dissemination of lies by the Palestinians in the media, among the Palestinian population and the Arab nations. Their goal is to tarnish Israel's image.

Examples of Palestinian lies:

· The IDF uses shells containing depleted Uranium.

against the Palestinians.

· Israel dispenses poisonous chocolate sweets in the Gaza Strip.

· The IDF employs 'Black Gas' that causes nausea among the Palestinians.

· Israel sells the Palestinians tins of paint containing poison.

· The IDF uses female soldiers who undress in front of Palestinian stone throwers, and when they approach them, the soldiers shoot them.

· Suha Arafat claimed during a visit by Hilary Clinton that Israel poisons Palestinian wells.

· Israel is responsible for spreading the 'Foot and Mouth' disease in territory of the Palestinian Authority.

Yesterday, a Palestinian and his two children were killed and a number of other people were injured in Rafah, the Gaza Strip.

The Palestinians seized this event and hurried to publicize in the media that the IDF was responsible for their deaths.

We know for sure that we did not fire there, neither anti-tank fire, nor attack helicopter fire, nor small arms fire. Therefore, based on these facts, we assumed that a mortar bomb that was fired by the Palestinians in the area, missed its target, something that happens on many occasions, and hit the Palestinian's house in Rafah causing their death.

During the night we received information according to which we know that it was a working accident of a terrorist called Samir Abu Zeyd, who was involved in terrorist activity against Israel.

This is not the first time whereby a working accident has occurred to activists of the 'Popular Resistance' in this area. We are aware of such working accidents, that illustrate the total irresponsibility of those Palestinians dealing with explosives amidst civilian population, and from time to time cause deaths among their relatives and other civilians.

The Palestinians falsely and cynically exploit every event in which there are casualties on their side, especially children, and this incident is a further example in a long series of Palestinian lies.


reply by
JC to Egyptian
4/4/2002 (10:53)
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Let me clarify my previous post: When I said that Arabs and Muslims were allied with Hitler and the Nazis in WW II to kill Jews, I did not mean ALL Arabs and Muslims. I specifically meant the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, al-Husseini, and the Bosnian soldiers he recruited for Hitler's program.
reply by
egyptian
4/4/2002 (11:50)
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Well JC ..
How am I supposed to prove the negative .. If you do not want to even admit the history dates and years ?
Your entire argument was based on a lie.
Whatever occupied people do .. What ever alliances they make .. Is an act of desperation.
You either have no knowledge at all of history.. or You are just too biased.
do you even know who said ' I WOULD WORK WITH THE DEVIL IF I HAVE TO ?'
You have your lies .. And I have my memories :). I used to play soccer in the backyard of a Jewish temple when I was young.
There is nothing you can say and do that would convince me that middle eastern were anti Semitic!.
There was this common consensus among us that Jews love money a little too much .
But then again .. As a multi monotheist culture every one had something to say about every one else .. Kind of sibling rivalry.
Which did not really make a difference when it came to every day life :
business partnerships , marriage , there were no ghettos in Egypt!.
Then came Zionism... then came the terror acts committed among us upon Jews by Jews !!!!
Imagine some Zionist believing in his cause so much . Wanting to get the Jewish people to Israel so much .. that he or she does not care about killing a few in the process..
but wait .. why imagine .. just read the most Zionistic news paper in the world new York times .. yesterday!!!
I posted that article . to show you that you can make a more valid claim that Zionists are anti Semitic !
This is where Ben laden started … the word zealot .. was created to describe Jewish fanatics. This is not a new issue … these things have been happening for thousands of years .. Zionism and Nazism and fanaticism is just the latest fad.
Nazism have claimed the most lives so far .. especially If you compound your accounting for Christian extreme with colonialism. But I have to tell you ..
Zionism is causing a major clash right now .. and you finally have a shot to out do Hitler!
But you are way smarter.. Most of the blood will not be yours.
peace
reply by
JC
4/4/2002 (12:15)
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Well Egyptian, I continue to fail you in trying communicate my point. I am not saying that you or any other particular Egyptian is anti-jewish/anti-semitic. There is however, a huge amount of anti-Jewish propoganda put out by your state-sponsored press. There is also a clear history of Muslims treating Jews like second class citizens throughout the ages. Muslim nations, however, were much more tolerant and open to Jews than Christians in Europe over the ages.

You said previously that your religion commands you to fight for those being persecuted. This may be true for you, but it has not always been true for all Muslims. I gave you a very relevant example of how the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem allied with Hitler and the Nazis to kill Jews in WW II and enlisted Muslim Bosnian soldiers to participate in the genocide of Jews, Serbs, and Roma.

Are you saying that this is not true? You said that I am a liar. I would like you to prove that this is the case. All you need do is show me proof that the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem did not ally with Hitler, and I will humbly eat my words and seek your and the other's forgiveness for propograting something that wasn't true. I take these matters very seriously.
reply by
JC
4/4/2002 (12:30)
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Egyptian - Here are some examples of anti-Jewish, anti-semitic Egyptian journalism.


September 17, 1998 marks twenty years since the signing of the Camp David Accords. This landmark agreement set the stage for the Israel-Egypt peace treaty six months later, which states, 'The Parties shall seek to foster mutual understanding and tolerance and will, accordingly, abstain from hostile propaganda against each other.' (Article 5 (3) of Annex III)

Despite two decades of peace, anti-Semitic themes permeate the official Egyptian media.

Four recurrent themes are discernible: classic anti-Semitic stereotypes, comparisons of Israel with the Nazis, denial of the Holocaust, and traditional libels.

The official Egyptian media repeatedly questions the extent of the Holocaust and accuses Jews of inflating the number of victims to pressure Western countries. It also equate Israel with the Nazis and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu with Adolf Hitler.

Jews are referred to as 'swindlers' and 'tricksters' in newspaper articles. Political cartoons depict Israel as the 'ugly Jew', bearing a remarkable likeness to that used in the Nazi Der Stuermer.

Israel is accused of spreading AIDS and other diseases in Arab countries, and of attempting to foment civil war in Egypt. After the terrorist attack at Luxor, in which 60 tourists were killed, the Egyptian media sought to implicate Israel in the attack.

Examples

Following are excerpts from articles in the official Egyptian press of the past year and a collection of cartoons.

* Egyptian weekly Roz Al-Yusuf, August 24, 1998
(article entitled, 'Senior Arab League Official Tells Us: The Story of the Israeli Blood Tainted with AIDS')
'A reliable source at the Arab League provided details of the report circulated by the League to its member states warning of imported blood units contaminated with the AIDS virus, hepatitis and bilharzia. They were manufactured by an Austrian company and Israel treated the blood units before they were sent to Arab and Third World nations... The question is: Is Israel waging chemical and biological warfare against the Arab states and Islam?'
* Egyptian daily Al-Akhbar, July 24, 1998
(article by Wajya Abu Thawkri, one of the newspaper's leading journalists)
'Israelis have built their state upon a collection of myths with no truthful basis. Hence, the Zionist organizations were struck with fear when Roger Garaudy [a French Holocaust revisionist] wrote about the myth of the extermination of Jews in ovens by the Nazis in World War II.'
* Egyptian daily Al-Akhbar, July 14, 1998
(article by Dr. Hassan Ragav)
'The Zionist movement is a racist political movement. The State of Israel is a state based on blackmail. Zionism has elevated the Holocaust to a sacred level and uses it for the purposes of blackmail... even if the ovens at Buchenwald and Auschwitz were working day and night, it would have taken dozens of years to kill six million people, and not just the three years which the Nazis had...'
* Egyptian daily Al-Ahram, July 1, 1998
(article stating that Israel should pay compensation to Egypt for natural resources taken from the Sinai just as the Jews are demanding compensation for the possessions of Holocaust victims)
'Israel sought to exploit the natural resources of the Sinai peninsula just as Nazi Germany acted in the territories which it occupied... Israel can not avoid payment of compensation to Egypt so long as she is blackmailing money from the United States and other countries with the claim that Jews during the Holocaust were eliminated in ovens and all their property was confiscated.'
* Egyptian daily Al-Akhbar, June 16, 1998
(article by the newspaper's chief editor, Jalal Dawidar, claiming that Israeli society is racist in nature)
'Racism poses a threat to the Jewish State. Thus, all Israeli governments act to preserve an air of tension and a militant, aggressive atmosphere in order to prevent an outbreak of clashes and struggles within Israel itself. For this purpose, Israeli governments act to ignite civil wars in neighboring countries. The Egyptian people are absolutely convinced that Israel has a role in igniting such civil wars... Israel was behind the attack at Luxor [in which 60 tourists were killed by terrorists] in order to sow division in the Egyptian nation.'
* Egyptian daily Al-Arab Al-Yom, June 9, 1998
(article by Al-Sid Ali Al-Sid)
'As for the Jews today, there is no difference between rigid or flexible. They are all the same, the difference being whether they kill a person with a thick, hard-bladed knife or by placing him on the electric chair... it is possible to deter these swindlers and tricksters and foil their schemes...'
* Egyptian daily Al-Ahram, June 1, 1998
'It is difficult to ignore the racial discrimination which characterizes the State of Israel or the extent to which this racism has penetrated Israeli society. This racial fanaticism is the same fanaticism that Israel transferred to the land of Palestine after experiencing it at the hands of the Nazis. It is now trying to impose the history of the Jews on the Arabs by expelling them from their lands and even destroying their race as much as possible.'
* Egyptian daily Al-Ahram, May 27, 1998
(article by retired Ambassador Muhammad Said al-Sayeed calling for the establishment of a Museum of the Crimes of Zionism)
'The crimes of the Jews are worse than the crimes of the Nazis. Nazi Germany carried out its crimes to create an empire, but it did not last more than 6 years. By contrast, the Jews have been carrying out their crimes for 50 years to establish their state which has not yet been erased... anyone who disputes the number of victims, which they estimate to be 6 million, is likely to be tried or exposed to intellectual terrorism just as Roger Garaudy [French Holocaust revisionist] was.'
* Egyptian daily Al-Ahram, May 13, 1998
(article by Salama Ahmed Salama quoting a saying from the book of Dr. Abed Wahab Masiri regarding Israel's jubilee celebrations)
'There is a great Jewish plot to gain control of the world.'
* Egyptian daily Al-Ahram, February 2, 1998
(article by the Chief Editor of the French-language Egyptian weekly Al-Ahram Habdo, Muhammad Salmawi, which appeared in the French and Arabic language editions of Al-Ahram. The title of the article is 'Find the Jews').
'There are no findings to indicate the existence of mass graves, because the size of the ovens makes it impossible for many Jews to have been killed there. According to the lists presented by the Soviets to the Germans, no more than 70,000 Jews were registered as having been at Auschwitz.'
* Egyptian daily Al-Akhbar, December 21, 1997
(article about Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu entitled 'The New Hitler')
'And so the New Hitler is redrawing the map of the region and decides to swallow all of the territories which he desires.'
reply by
egyptian
4/4/2002 (12:40)
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You have posted an article to prove a point which is Palestinians Muslims were anti Semitic as evident by the fact that there mufti had alliance with Hitler.
Now I could have demolished your point by pointing out that :-
- the mufti is one human being .
- that entire area were slaves to occupiers at the time and weather or not you subscribe to Hitler ideology does not make a difference when he is your only chance out.
- Even in Egypt we looked for Hitler as a way out from under the British.
- The facts that Jews were being gassed did not come out right away in our area .. and the common consensus was that the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
- The grand daddy of that theory is no other than Churchill himself. The same guy that allowed Israel to exist to start with. He said he would ally with the devil to win.
And more along those lines .. that alone disproves your theory .
But .. I am not posting here just as ventilation of my tensions resulting from watching all that blood ..
I figured to try to achieve some informative role too to people reading here so they may teach me as I teach them .. maybe there are some fruits of knowledge to be gathered by talking here on this medium that allows research to be very easy.
So thinking like that .. when you post an articles that contains as many historical lies as yours did ..
It became more important to point these outrages lies than your original point even
After all .. would you debate geography with some one who thinks the sun comes up from the west ? or that the earth was flat ?

Ok .. I might be wrong .. but this is how I qualify a reference !!!
Since I do not know every thing about every thing.. there is no way that I would read an article and know immediately who wrote it and why ... but that does not mean that you can not decide on its AUTHENTICTY.
As a rule .. an opinionated article does not make a good reference ..
A good reference has to be NEUTRAL and greed upon by A LOT of conflicting researchers. ( like the facts that a lot of Jews were killed in WWII).. You always start with the facts and then align all the new information around them to see weather they fit or not.
But . you can compare any relevant FACTS that you know with the content of that article ..
What that article said about Egypt harboring ex Nazis to use to war against Israel falls within my area of experience and it is a FLAT DIMM WITTED STUPID LIE. Every one and there cousin knows where German rocket scientist ended up and why . If you think that I would continue reading that article passed that point .. then I can see why you end up with such demolished sense of truth.!
I tried to help you get rid of the references that was clearly false in your library .. but obviously you are content to have what ever universe of information that you live in order to continue the state of self delusion that all Zionist live in after they woke and realized that there Zion was built on top of other people holocaust .. and to fix it .. they have to stop being loyal to the cause that they have devoted there entire life for. Consider this .. the only cause worthy of absolute loyalty is god .. a distant second is the well being of your own. Zionism angers god because of its ethnic hatred component and its violence .. it offends 10 out of 10 commandments . and your own will never ever never be safe. Even if you win you lose .. get it ?
By the way .. a lot of orthodox Jews share my view on that point.
peace
reply by
egyptian
4/4/2002 (13:00)
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Ok al-ahram is the official newspaper of government.
So the rest of your post is garbage ..
Now show me the anti Semitism in the following…
Remember now .. anti-Semitism not anti-Zionism.


Egyptian daily Al-Ahram, July 1, 1998
(article stating that Israel should pay compensation to Egypt for natural resources taken from the Sinai just as the Jews are demanding compensation for the possessions of Holocaust victims)
'Israel sought to exploit the natural resources of the Sinai peninsula just as Nazi Germany acted in the territories which it occupied... Israel can not avoid payment of compensation to Egypt so long as she is blackmailing money from the United States and other countries with the claim that Jews during the Holocaust were eliminated in ovens and all their property was confiscated.'

[ ?????? you are not admitting that isreal confiscated properties and resources from Sinai during its occupation??? ]

* Egyptian daily Al-Ahram, May 27, 1998
(article by retired Ambassador Muhammad Said al-Sayeed calling for the establishment of a Museum of the Crimes of Zionism)
'The crimes of the Jews are worse than the crimes of the Nazis. Nazi Germany carried out its crimes to create an empire, but it did not last more than 6 years. By contrast, the Jews have been carrying out their crimes for 50 years to establish their state which has not yet been erased... anyone who disputes the number of victims, which they estimate to be 6 million, is likely to be tried or exposed to intellectual terrorism just as Roger Garaudy [French Holocaust revisionist] was.'

[ You do not think that this is accurate ?]


* Egyptian daily Al-Ahram, May 13, 1998
(article by Salama Ahmed Salama quoting a saying from the book of Dr. Abed Wahab Masiri regarding Israel's jubilee celebrations)
'There is a great Jewish plot to gain control of the world.'

[ an op’ed columnist is quoting a phrase from a published book .. I can show you millions of things like that in ISREALI press .. and considering the Nile to forat greater isreal … that is our world. The fact the used Jews instead of Zionist is anti Semitic .. but after all .. that is a far fetch from government controlled press pushing an idea .. this is an author that could not tolerate to be politically correct while watching the daily massacres.]




Egyptian daily Al-Ahram, February 2, 1998
(article by the Chief Editor of the French-language Egyptian weekly Al-Ahram Habdo, Muhammad Salmawi, which appeared in the French and Arabic language editions of Al-Ahram. The title of the article is 'Find the Jews').
'There are no findings to indicate the existence of mass graves, because the size of the ovens makes it impossible for many Jews to have been killed there. According to the lists presented by the Soviets to the Germans, no more than 70,000 Jews were registered as having been at Auschwitz.'
[So you would like to impose censorship against any holocaust research mention in Egyptian news papers?]



Look .. save your time and wait .. in a few days .. the American media is giong to start attacking Arab world media .. they already attacked schools , attitudes , religion , civilization) the queue for that attack is not issued yet .. They are waiting till the leaders of the region start to behave badly enough for such an attack. then you will have much more ammunition to attack with. For now the word is ' hush' while we destroy the infra structure of Palestinians in the territories before we remove Sharon and put Netanyahu instead. which is really just a cover for infiltrating Pakistan the only declared nuclear Muslim power. Get it? I sure do.
peace.
reply by
JC
4/4/2002 (13:28)
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For my own edification, Egyptian, how old are you?
reply by
egyptian
4/4/2002 (13:44)
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Is there an answer that I can give you that is relevant to our discussion?
If you are trying to assess weather or not a lot of people in Egypt think like I do… And believe what I believe … You are not going to like it.
Peace .. I hope.

reply by
JC
4/4/2002 (14:49)
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Egyptian - Let me respond to your postings


Ok al-ahram is the official newspaper of government.
So the rest of your post is garbage ..

**Thanks for sharing your opinion. Very constructive.


Now show me the anti Semitism in the following…
Remember now .. anti-Semitism not anti-Zionism.

**Please see Martin Luther King speech posted in other discussion. Often times they are.


Egyptian daily Al-Ahram, July 1, 1998
(article stating that Israel should pay compensation to Egypt for natural resources taken from the Sinai just as the Jews are demanding compensation for the possessions of Holocaust victims)
'Israel sought to exploit the natural resources of the Sinai peninsula just as Nazi Germany acted in the territories which it occupied... Israel can not avoid payment of compensation to Egypt so long as she is blackmailing money from the United States and other countries with the claim that Jews during the Holocaust were eliminated in ovens and all their property was confiscated.'

[ ?????? you are not admitting that isreal confiscated properties and resources from Sinai during its occupation??? ]


**They very well may have. I don't know. The anti-semitic part here has to do with comparing the Israelis to the Nazis and insinuating that Jews are blackmailing countries that contributed to the genocide waged against the Jews in WW II.



* Egyptian daily Al-Ahram, May 27, 1998
(article by retired Ambassador Muhammad Said al-Sayeed calling for the establishment of a Museum of the Crimes of Zionism)
'The crimes of the Jews are worse than the crimes of the Nazis. Nazi Germany carried out its crimes to create an empire, but it did not last more than 6 years. By contrast, the Jews have been carrying out their crimes for 50 years to establish their state which has not yet been erased... anyone who disputes the number of victims, which they estimate to be 6 million, is likely to be tried or exposed to intellectual terrorism just as Roger Garaudy [French Holocaust revisionist] was.'

[ You do not think that this is accurate ?]

**Again - the equation of Zionism to Nazism is experienced as very hostile, inaccurate, and anti-semitic by Jews.
Zionism is about the establishment of a homeland for Jews. It is not about the denial of a homeland for Palestinians or the elimination of Palestinians. An unavoidable outcome of Zionism is an enormous amount of pain and suffering for the Palestinian people, but it is not the aim of Zionism and it didn't have to be that way if the Palestinians had been willing to live with a 2-state solution . Nazism was about the intentional genocide of a number of groups of people.



* Egyptian daily Al-Ahram, May 13, 1998
(article by Salama Ahmed Salama quoting a saying from the book of Dr. Abed Wahab Masiri regarding Israel's jubilee celebrations)
'There is a great Jewish plot to gain control of the world.'

[ an op’ed columnist is quoting a phrase from a published book .. I can show you millions of things like that in ISREALI press .. and considering the Nile to forat greater isreal … that is our world. The fact the used Jews instead of Zionist is anti Semitic .. but after all .. that is a far fetch from government controlled press pushing an idea .. this is an author that could not tolerate to be politically correct while watching the daily massacres.]


**Egyptian - you can rationalize away all you want, but even you admit it is anti-semitic. How would you like it if I spent the rest of my life running around the world persuading people that Egyptians had a grand plot to subjugate the rest of us? Think about that.



Egyptian daily Al-Ahram, February 2, 1998
(article by the Chief Editor of the French-language Egyptian weekly Al-Ahram Habdo, Muhammad Salmawi, which appeared in the French and Arabic language editions of Al-Ahram. The title of the article is 'Find the Jews').
'There are no findings to indicate the existence of mass graves, because the size of the ovens makes it impossible for many Jews to have been killed there. According to the lists presented by the Soviets to the Germans, no more than 70,000 Jews were registered as having been at Auschwitz.'
[So you would like to impose censorship against any holocaust research mention in Egyptian news papers?]

**Holocaust denial is very dangerous, and very anti-semitic. How would you feel if I claimed that the Phalangists only murdered 12 civillians in Sabra and Shatilla, and I have proof that this is so? Get it? There are many ignorant people who will believe this BS and then we are setting ourselves up for another holocaust (and I don't consider what is going on in Israel and the territories right now to be a holocaust - what happened in Bosnia and Rawanda were on the scale of a genocidal holocaust).

HOLOCAUST (Heb., sho'ah). The word 'holocaust' is derived from the Greek holokauston, which originally meant a sacrifice totally burned by fire; it was used in the translation of I Samuel 7:9, 'a burnt offering to God.' In the course of time it came to. be used to describe slaughter on a general or large scale, and, especially, various forms of the destruction of masses of human beings. In the 1950s the term came to be applied primarily to the destruction of the Jews of Europe under the Nazi regime, and it is also employed in describing the annihilation of other groups of people in World War II. The mass extermination of Jews has become the archetype of GENOCIDE, and the terms sho'ah and 'holocaust' have become linked to the attempt by the Nazi German state to destroy European Jewry during World War II.


Peace.
reply by
JC
4/4/2002 (14:51)
 reply top
This might help too. I am not a particularly talented orator or writer, so let me bring in someone who is at least better than me.

Arab Anti-Semitism and the Arab-Israeli Conflict
By Abraham H. Foxman - July, 30 2001

For many years anti-Semitism in the Arab world was seen as a marginal issue. Manifestations of Jew hatred were attributed to the ongoing resentments stemming from the hostilities between Israel and the Arabs rather than to any deep-seated prejudice. It was repeatedly pointed out that Jews living under Islam through the centuries experienced far more tolerance than Jews in Christian Europe.
Those who wanted to make something of the issue - calling the Arabs fundamentally anti-Semitic - were dismissed as individuals who were looking for any reason to avoid moving forward a peace process that would necessitate concessions.

Now that we are simultaneously witnessing the unraveling of hopes for peace and a spurt of Arab anti-Semitism, it forces us to take another look at the connection between anti-Semitism and the Arab-Israeli conflict.

Is anti-Semitism a more deeply ingrained phenomenon in the Arab world than we have been willing to acknowledge and, if so, what does it say about future Arab-Israeli relations? Is current anti-Semitism in the Middle East linked to historic Muslim attitudes toward Jews? Even if anti-Semitism were more deeply ingrained in the Arab world, is peace still a possibility?

A look at the evolution of the Holocaust as a theme of Arab propaganda gives an insight to this subject. Until recently, the Arabs argued shrewdly, though falsely, in their reading of history, maintaining that they should not be paying the price for the murder of six million Jews by Europeans.

Ignoring the real Jewish connection to the land of Israel, this argument had a certain resonance in that it acknowledged the horror of the Holocaust but depicted the Palestinians as innocent victims of a European guilt that needed to be atoned for by granting the Jews a state. Now, however, there is a shift in their Holocaust denial and revisionism, by asserting that the Jews have concocted or exaggerated what happened during World War II in order to dupe the world into accepting the illegitimate Jewish state in Palestine.

This change in emphasis suggests that the issue is not primarily that of the depth of anti-Semitism but of the reduction of inhibitions about expressing such extreme forms of hatred. The Palestinians no longer merely have to talk about their suffering as a consequence of Jewish suffering, when they can get away with accusing the Jews of being the perpetrators of a fraud.

What this tells us is that it is vitally important for nations and leaders around the world to take seriously these manifestations of hatred and denounce them. The US and the European Union must not allow Yasser Arafat, Hosni Mubarak, or other leaders in the Arab world to think that they can tolerate or encourage anti-Semitism in their societies with impunity.

It is hard enough to overcome the political and nationalistic problems that stand in the way of Palestinian-Israeli peace. The spreading anti-Semitic incitement - blood-libel charges, conspiracy theories, comparing Israel to Hitler - will only embitter the peoples on both sides and make good-faith peace negotiations an even more distant dream.

Moreover, whether or not this surge of anti-Semitic rhetoric is deeply rooted, it is clear that this kind of barrage, if continued over time, will poison the minds of many in the Arab world so that anti-Semitism will indeed become a way of life as never before. The prospects this development would hold for greater violence against Jews, not only in the Middle East but also around the world, are too terrible to contemplate.

Several months ago I said that we must be as firm in denouncing Arab anti-Semitism as any other kind of anti-Semitism. Today, I go a step further. Arab anti-Semisim, if allowed to flourish, could become one of the most destructive forces unleashed in this new century. History has shown us where anti-Semitism can lead. Combating it right now must not be the task only of Israel and organizations like the Anti-Defamation League. For the sake of peace and a sane world, responsible governments everywhere must start to speak up.

(The writer is national director of the Anti-Defamation League.)
reply by
egyptian
4/4/2002 (15:17)
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OOh boy this is hard.
What might seem to you are arrogance is because when a fact is so decided by all involved parties .. MR JC not admitting to it really says a lot about JC not anything else.

YOUR POINT WAS:
'Despite two decades of peace, anti-Semitic themes permeate the OFFICIAL Egyptian media. '
now read my response again.
al-ahram IS THE ONLY OFFICIAL EGYPTIAN MEDIA. Ask anybody who actually knows something about Egypt. so that was not just my opinion.
Now if you read what you posted .. You are a firm believer in Zionism=Semitism as you understand it. You said:
(Now show me the anti Semitism in the following…
Remember now .. anti-Semitism not anti-Zionism.

**Please see Martin Luther King speech posted in other discussion. Often times they are.)

Semitism is a race .. it is a blood line . it is not a movement .. it is not a government .. it is not some divine religion like Judaism is.
Your position is a RACIAL argument .. Because Semites come from Sam..
But then .. Faced by how many times YOU not other people YOU have changed your position and point of references during this posting .. I am completely unable to navigate in a conversation with you ..
You talk with a religious agenda once ( Mufti of Palestine) then you talk with a political one ( official media) and when you are not watching .. Your true agenda reeks ( RACE).
I am not naive enough to think that I can change your true racial nature.
It is something that took a lot of years and personal experience and you could not shake.
My whole point which you never addressed directly is that you are producing racist Palestinians by your occupation and by your initial Zionism. And just look of how much hatred you have for Hitler. There will be and there are a lot of people who hate you just the same. You can not negotiate with them ( The only thing that I agree with Sharon on).
How ever .. You can prevent them from doing harm to you by returning what is rightly there’s to them.. They have agreed to accept 22 % of what is there’s . Do not haggle and kill some more people just to make sure you have driven the % down as much as you can under this world order . Because there will be a point in time if you continue doing that that will make even those of us that are not racially biased against you .. to actually harm you more than the weak racially motivated . Israel is acting like a virus that put in the Middle East to weaken its overall regional wellbeing. And if it continues on this path.. it is only a matter of time until that body rejects it . Or the other scenario is that body will die .in both cases you lose.
Now if you want to further converse.. That is ok .. but give me your agenda in black and white .. In advance.... Because other wise I can think of a lot more useful things to-do with my time.