Who are these people?
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AuthorTopic: Who are these people?
topic by
Ramseys
4/4/2002 (12:10)
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The people who have taken shelter inside churches in Bethelehem, are they terrorists? The American media is trying desperately hard to convince Americans that they are.

Here is a story from the BBC.


Thursday, 4 April, 2002, 10:40 GMT 11:40 UK
Bethlehem priest shelters Palestinians


Israel says it is rooting out 'terrorists'

A priest in Bethlehem says his church and others all over the town are being used as refuges by local families fleeing from Israeli tanks and soldiers.
Father Magdi Siryani told the BBC his own Church of Our Lady Fatima was housing about 25 people.

Some Palestinian militants have sought shelter in the Church of the Nativity in Manger Square - the reputed birthplace of Christ.

The only place to go, the last resort, is the churches

Father Magdi Siryani

'Dozens and dozens of churches are full of people who just fled this terror,' said Father Siryani.

'People are terrorised, they are panicking outside.

'The only place to go, the last resort, is the churches.'

'Weapons useless'

Father Siryani denied the churches were sheltering gunmen, saying that, on principle, weapons were not allowed inside.


Father Siryani said his church was full of 'old men, women, kids'

'[The reason] they did come to the church is because the weapon is helpless and useless at this point,' he said.

'They left their weapons, they came to the church, there are families, old men, women, kids - this is what we have in the churches.'

The Church of Our Lady Fatima is just 400 metres (0.25 mile) from Manger Square, where Father Siryani said the situation at the Church of the Nativity was 'very bad'.

'[The Israelis] are surrounding the building, with hundreds and hundreds of soldiers, heavy artillery and tanks are all over the place,' he said.

'Inside, they are lacking water, they are lacking medical help because some of them are injured [and] ambulances are not allowed in.'

'Anything could happen'

He said he did not believe that the army would shoot at the church - built on the spot where the Virgin Mary is supposed to have given birth in a stable - but people still feared for their safety.

'The shooting is so random and shelling is random and anything could happen any time,' he said.

But he hoped the troops would leave as the Israelis had achieved their goal.



If they are expecting the churches will allow them in, they are mistaken - I think they have to leave

Father Magdi Siryani

'Militarily speaking, they succeeded in their invasion.

'Now their presence there is useless, because unless they invade the churches, break into the churches, they won't be able to do anything.

'If they are expecting the churches will allow them in, they are mistaken. I think they have to leave,' Father Siryani said.

'Our main concern is dealing with the humanitarian emergency issues like picking up the bodies and giving them burials, picking up the injured people and trying to help them, take them to hospitals and sending people to their houses.'


Israeli government spokesman Ra'anan Gissin
'This war is not about occupation, it's about terrorism'

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1910000/1910370.stm
reply by
JC
4/4/2002 (12:17)
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Man details situation in Church of the Nativity


Editor's Note: CNN Access is a regular feature on CNN.com providing interviews with newsmakers from around the world.

BETHLEHEM, West Bank (CNN) --As many as 200 Palestinians, mostly men, are holed up inside the Church of the Nativity here, with Israeli tanks perched outside and Christian clergy blocked from getting in. The church is one of the holiest sites in Christendom; it is built over a cave that some believe was the manger where Jesus was born. One of those in the church, Anton Salman, a member of the Antonius Society, a humanitarian group in Bethlehem, talked with CNN anchor Daryn Kagan about the situation Wednesday.

SALMAN: I have been inside the Church of the Nativity since [Tuesday] night.

KAGAN: How did you end up inside the church?

SALMAN: In the afternoon, when the people entered the church, there were many rumors around Bethlehem that ... there were problems inside the church. The governor asked me to come with him to the church to see what is going on ... to solve the problem, if there were any problems.

KAGAN: How many people are inside the church?

SALMAN: It's around 200.

KAGAN: Are we talking men, women, children?

SALMAN: Yes, mostly men.

KAGAN: Are they Palestinian gunmen?

SALMAN: They are from the Palestinian police and ... mostly from the Palestinian Authority police, who ran away to the Church of the Nativity to implore protection inside the church after [unintelligible] was bombed and shot at by Israeli tanks and soldiers.

And they saw their mosque, Umar, which is across from the Church of the Nativity, bombed. They were afraid, and they looked for a place to be secure. So they found the only way; they ran to the church and found a place to stay.

KAGAN: They not only picked a secure place, they picked one of most holy places in the world to Christians and put that in peril. Do they realize that?

SALMAN: We here understand our history, and that the Church of the Nativity [has been a sacred] place to the people during all wars. ... So from this point, they thought that the Church of the Nativity was a safer place to enter and ... entered the church looking for protection. They are still inside the church.

KAGAN: What are the conditions inside the church right now, in terms of supplies or if people are wounded?

SALMAN: The situation is very bad. It's very bad from all forms. ... The food that is in the convent in the church is going very, very quickly. ... Second, there are 10 injured people who are inside the church. One of them has very a serious injury and he ... has been bleeding since yesterday. They gave him first aid, but that's not enough. The Red Cross did not agree to come to the church to help or to take out injured people.

KAGAN: It sounds like you are ... going to have to leave.

SALMAN: The wounded people, they need to be hospitalized.

KAGAN: But what about the others?

SALMAN: I think [the situation here] must be [discussed] on the level of the high Palestinian political leader[ship] and the negotiators of the Israelis. The Israelis must come to negotiate for all that's going on in Palestine. And one of the [biggest] problems is what's going in Bethlehem.

KAGAN: But as far as the people holed up inside this very holy Christian site, do you know if talks are going on to try to get these people out?

SALMAN: Concerning what's going on in the church, yes. It's the most holy place in the world.

And I am Christian. I am, myself, a Christian and I am a believer. It's very difficult for me to accept that one day people would be inside the Church of the Nativity [like this]. It is something that I can't accept, and I will not be ready to accept these disasters, and especially inside the church -- a place like the Church of the Nativity.

KAGAN: And so as a Christian, you understand the significance of the site and that in a way you are holding this holy site hostage?

SALMAN: I have nothing do with all of these [problems]. I entered [the church] to solve the problem here. I am a civilian looking to solve a problem -- a humanitarian problem of the people are sitting here. I am not one of the persons who entered the church, [who were] running from the fire, but I entered after that -- maybe two hours after that.

KAGAN: And then, you went in trying to help. Why did you go in?

SALMAN: I think there is a responsibility of any civilian in any community. When you see somebody planning to attack your church, I don't think that you would say to me what is going on. [This is something] I believe in. You must find a solution for that, and the way to solve this is to help them.

KAGAN: As we talk, we hear some kind of guns or some kind of explosions in the background. Do you know what that is?

SALMAN: No.

KAGAN: You can't. OK. And just one more time in terms of conditions there, how long do you think that the people who are holed up there can stay without additional supplies and medical help?

SALMAN: I can't [comment] about [those] things.
reply by
Ramseys
4/4/2002 (12:29)
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Mr. JC, can you quote any corroborating source other than any of the american media? How about the Pope?

My original point was that the American media does very little to verify the stories they air and try to put a pro-israeli spin on any stories unfavorable to Israel.
reply by
JC
4/4/2002 (12:35)
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Sure. I'd be happy to. Can you please post the Vatican's website for me?
reply by
JC
4/4/2002 (12:45)
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Just a little background info on Mr. Reese.

Spring 1999
Volume 8, No 1

Charley Reese's Syndicated Propaganda

The opinion pages of more than 85 national newspapers have been fertile ground for syndicated columnist Charley Reese's decade-old war of words against Israel. Ironically, Reese was once a defender of Israel, faulting politicians and the mass media for precisely the same reporting transgressions he now commitssubstituting myths for fact and espousing baseless propaganda.

A September 24, 1998 column entitled, 'Israel: Technologically modern but politically medieval state,' is characteristic of Reese's rhetoric, falsely claiming that Israel practices racial and ethnic discrimination. Reese's evidence for the charge? 'A long conversation' he had with Azmi Bashara, an Israeli Arab Member of Knesset.

Reese lists Bashara's claims without even a pretense of independent corroboration, charging that Israel is not a true democracy. He quotes Bashara's assertion that, 'It is a state of the Jews, not a state of its citizens,' and cites examples to illustrate that Arabs in Israel are 'subject to racial and ethnic discrimination.' First, Reese charges that:

The Israeli government spends exactly half as much money educating its Arab citizens as it does its Jewish citizens.
In fact, proportionally more money is spent on Arab students than on their Jewish counterparts. While Israeli Arab students comprise approximately 20% of the total student body in Israel, their share in education development budgets exceeds 30% (Office of the Prime Minister's Advisor for Arab Affairs, Summary Report of the Government Ministries' Activities in 1997 in the non-Jewish sector). In addition, in 1997 Israel cut its budget by NIS 7.5 billion. Despite this drastic reduction, the government ensured that the budgets allocated for the Arab population remained intact while those for all other local authorities declined.

Then Reese alleges:

But even Arab citizens who get college degrees cannot find jobs. He [Bashara] said that the Israeli Electric Company employs 25,000 people but that only six are Arab.
Again, Reese accepted and repeated Bashara's statistics without verifying them. The Israel Electric Company (IEC) employs a total of approximately 13,500 individuals, not 25,000. Fifty-six of those employees are non-Jews, including Arabs and Druze. Several hundred additional non-Jewish individuals are employed by subcontractors working for the IEC.

Moreover, beyond citing erroneous statistics, Reese was also misleading in singling out a company that, unlike many other enterprises, employs relatively few people in the non-Jewish sector. He failed to explain that employees of the IEC are subject to security clearances as the nature of their work exposes them to sensitive issues and information. Because Israeli-Arabs are not required to serve in the Israel Defense Force along with their fellow citizens, and overwhelmingly do not serve, they cannot pass the required security clearance. The IEC excludes all citizens who do not receive appropriate security clearance, whether they are Jews, Muslims or Christians. Druze, for example, who are members of a Muslim sect, serve in the Israeli army and are employed by the IEC. It should also be noted that Arabs are employed in every sector of Israeli society, by universities, hospitals, social organizations and all branches of Government. An Israeli Arab has been appointed to the Supreme Court and an Israeli Arab woman has been chosen to represent the country as 'Miss Israel' in an international beauty pageant.

As additional evidence of Israel's 'undemocratic' character, Reese writes:

Bashara said the current prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, even ran on a racist slogan: 'Netanyahu is good for the Jews.'
Wrong again. Neither Netanyahu nor the Likud party introduced, repeated or even supported the above slogan. Rather, the phrase was created by the Lubavitch chasidim several weeks before the Israeli election in an effort to urge adherents to support Netanyahu. In the fall of 1998, dissatisfied with Prime Minister Netanyahu's performance in office, members of the Lubavitch movement began campaigning to oust the prime minister from office with the slogan, 'Netanyahu is bad for the Jews.'

While denouncing Israel for its supposed shortcomings as a democracy, Reese is silent about the non-democratic regime emerging in Palestinian-controlled territory. Since the signing of the peace accords, more than 67 Palestinians have been killed for suspected 'collaboration' with Israel, tens of journalists have been arrested for publishing articles critical of the PA, at least 14 Palestinians have died in PA custody and human rights organizations have documented systematic torture and instances of extrajudicial killings.

Reese is silent on another matter: Although Reese's article is based exclusively on allegations uttered by Azmi Bashara, the columnist fails to inform readers of Bashara's advocacy of Israel's annihilation. On May 29, 1998, during an interview with Israeli journalist Ari Shavit, Bashara shocked many Israelis when he explained Palestinians would never accept Israel's existence. He stressed that Israel had no moral right to exist, not even within the 1949 armistice lines.

Bashara insisted that there is no Jewish people or Jewish nation, only, at best, a Jewish religion. He also stated that even the establishment of a Palestinian state and the return of all Palestinian refugees would not solve the present conflict, as Israel must compromise not just with the Palestinians, but with the Arabs. Months before this interview with Reese, Bashara laid a wreath on the grave of Fathi Shkaki, a leader of the terrorist organization Islamic Jihad. (Finally, while Bashara accuses Jewish Israelis of racial discrimination, he chooses to live among them: Bashara recently purchased a $250,000 home in the heart of Natzrat Ilit, a Jewish city in the Galilee.)

Moreover, that Bashara can advocate Israel's destruction and remain a member of the Knesset suggests the strength, not the weakness, of democratic freedoms in Israel.

Reese has a long history of using false information and distorted statistics as evidence for his claims. His animus toward Israel is apparent in almost everything he writes. He has labeled the U.S. Congress 'Zionist-occupied territory' and has responded to criticism of his biased reporting on Israel by claiming that the 'Israeli lobby is to the First Amendment what the Ku Klux Klan is to civil rights.' Reese also defends his disregard for journalistic standards and history of mustering false information against Israel with the flippant retort that his columns are worth what people pay for them, '50 cents and a buck and half on Sunday.' The American Society of Newspaper Editors disagrees, holding that opinion writing should be as accurate as news reports.

Basheva Genut

reply by
JC from the BBC
4/4/2002 (12:48)
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A priest in Bethlehem says his church and others all over the town are being used as refuges by local families fleeing from Israeli tanks and soldiers.
Father Magdi Siryani told the BBC his own Church of Our Lady Fatima was housing about 25 people.

Some Palestinian militants have sought shelter in the Church of the Nativity in Manger Square - the reputed birthplace of Christ.



The only place to go, the last resort, is the churches

Father Magdi Siryani

'Dozens and dozens of churches are full of people who just fled this terror,' said Father Siryani.

'People are terrorised, they are panicking outside.

'The only place to go, the last resort, is the churches.'

'Weapons useless'

Father Siryani denied the churches were sheltering gunmen, saying that, on principle, weapons were not allowed inside.


Father Siryani said his church was full of 'old men, women, kids'

'[The reason] they did come to the church is because the weapon is helpless and useless at this point,' he said.

'They left their weapons, they came to the church, there are families, old men, women, kids - this is what we have in the churches.'

The Church of Our Lady Fatima is just 400 metres (0.25 mile) from Manger Square, where Father Siryani said the situation at the Church of the Nativity was 'very bad'.

'[The Israelis] are surrounding the building, with hundreds and hundreds of soldiers, heavy artillery and tanks are all over the place,' he said.

'Inside, they are lacking water, they are lacking medical help because some of them are injured [and] ambulances are not allowed in.'

'Anything could happen'

He said he did not believe that the army would shoot at the church - built on the spot where the Virgin Mary is supposed to have given birth in a stable - but people still feared for their safety.

'The shooting is so random and shelling is random and anything could happen any time,' he said.

But he hoped the troops would leave as the Israelis had achieved their goal.



If they are expecting the churches will allow them in, they are mistaken - I think they have to leave

Father Magdi Siryani

'Militarily speaking, they succeeded in their invasion.

'Now their presence there is useless, because unless they invade the churches, break into the churches, they won't be able to do anything.

'If they are expecting the churches will allow them in, they are mistaken. I think they have to leave,' Father Siryani said.

'Our main concern is dealing with the humanitarian emergency issues like picking up the bodies and giving them burials, picking up the injured people and trying to help them, take them to hospitals and sending people to their houses.'

reply by
Ramseys
4/4/2002 (13:20)
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I believe that any reasonable American agrees with the notion that the American media is pro-Israeli.

However, how complete is that tilt can be gaged from following this link.

It is posted by a seemingly anti-jewish group. However, it does not take away from the hard facts and information provided which can be verified by anyone willing to spend a few hours doing their own research.

I assure you that I am not anti-Jewish (infact, I feel for them for the historic wrongs done to them). I am only pro-fairness.

http://www.stormfront.org/jewish/whorules.html
reply by
JC
4/4/2002 (13:24)
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Yes, and I am pro-Black and pro-fairness, but please check out this great website that tells it like it is:
http://www.Resume-Slavery-of-Black-People-Immediately.com


Pleeeeze.
reply by
Ramseys
4/4/2002 (13:59)
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Are you denying that the media is pro-Israeli and that its ownerhip in contect and equity is predominantly jewish, OR, is it just your knee jerk reaction?
reply by
John Calvin
4/4/2002 (14:21)
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The point about this report is that it is just another media side-show invested with all kinds of remote 'meaning', 'sacred and Holy' , presumed to be a highly important matter ( It has symbolic significance!), as opposed to the relentless slaughter and punishment being meeted out to nameless, faceless, insignificant human beings in OTHER areas all over the West Bank and Gaza.

Yes, yes! Let's get right to the bottom of this scene at the Church of the Nativity, no effort must be spared to determine who is to blame for the profanation of this Holy ground! How exciting! the fate of the birthplace of Jesus Christ right in the palm of our hands. Note:with a scene like this in the air there was even a period of a couple of hours in which it seemed like George Bush might 'reconsider' his 'hands-off' position!

Meanwhile, good stuff by is being dragged to the bottom and off the page: so all this wonderful 'Headline', 'Breaking News Stuff' enforces a kind of collective distraction and amnesia.

The character of our production, its educational utility, the core of the message that MER and its members wish to project is degraded when too much time and space is devoted to postings which readsers clearly know is uninformed and, if not deliberately then unconsciously, mendacious.

reply by
JC
4/4/2002 (14:25)
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The US media tends to be more biased towards Israel than the Arab states, but is more even handed than either the Arab press or the European press.

As for Jewish ownership of the media, while Jews are disproportionately represented in leading roles in the media, the majority of media moguls are not Jewish.
Lord Conrad Black - not jewish.
Ted Turner - not Jewish
Ruppert Murdoch - not Jewish
AOL-Time Warner - not Jewish


I've looked into this. If Jews really did control the media as you are trying to imply, do you really think there would be as much criticism of Israel as there is.
Read the NY Times one of these days.

But, hey, thanks again for the terrific white supremacist, proud neo-nazi website link. Your contributions to this forum are invaluable.
reply by
Ramseys
4/4/2002 (14:42)
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To JC:
My intent was never to ruffle anyone's feathers but referring to a white-supremacist web site. But, one can not quarrel with just the INFORMATION part of it! That was its only purpose.

Some facts:

Time Warner CEO, Gerald Levin is Jewish,
Ted Turner sold his CNN to Time Warner. CNN now is run by Walter Issacson, whi is jewish.
Rupert Murdock's Fox News (or so called news) is run by Petre Chernin, also jewish.

Please look into them again.

The fact that the arab press is rabidly anti-jewish or american is an not an excuse for the american media to be 'not-so-rapidly' anti arab. It only hurts the US' long term interests in the world because the american public is kept artificially uninformed or misinformed about the things that affect their future.

BTW, I am not pro, or anti, black. I am definitely anti-slavery

reply by
JC
4/4/2002 (14:55)
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You need some more updated propoganda facts Ramsey - Gerald Levin is no longer CEO at Time Warner. A Gentile is.

I don't know about Walter Issacson, but how could the Jews allow CNN to run out of their control for so many year under that gentile Turner.

I'm going to have to call ZOG and complain about them slipping up in the past.
reply by
egyptian
4/4/2002 (15:37)
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did anyone read the
Topic: More details on pro-Israel media bias
reply by
moshe dayan
4/4/2002 (15:43)
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Jc.
U sound like one of those nice liberal american jews who smoke dope and listen to Bob Dylan.
Get real friend, your cousins are evil.What they have done since they landed in the region nearly equates the holocaust in horror and misery.

And by the way what are u still doing in America? i thought that there was only one place for the jews to go?

A gentile
reply by
Ramseys
4/4/2002 (15:46)
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JC
The intent was never to make it personal but unfortunately that is where it is going.

You keep getting increasingly defensive and start to mock what I am saying. I am not interested in carrying this on. The facts are there to see for anyone willing to look.

Cheers and au revoir
reply by
TheAZCowBoy
4/4/2002 (15:57)
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Re: Jews, will they ever have any friends?

As a boy I used to hate the German Nazi's for what they did to the Jews.

As an old man, I now begin to understand old Adolph and consider him a real visionary.

Anti-Semite? Who me!!!!

Not on your life, I was just taught by my Papa to call a spade-a-spade.

Sorry JC.
reply by
JC
4/4/2002 (16:24)
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That's cool Cowboy.

I'm sure there are several folks out there who have an irrational hatred of you too.
reply by
Abraham
4/4/2002 (20:40)
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Whoever this JC is (definitely not Jesus Christ). Stop playing victim and move on! This is not a religious site (get it?) so stop referring to Gentiles vs. Jews!
reply by
JC
4/4/2002 (22:48)
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Ozzie or Abraham - No I don't get it. Please explain.

And if you wish to discourage identifying people as gentiles or jews than I suggest you speak to Mr. Ramsey and his White supremacist website. I was simply responding to his post which singled out jewish people.

If you have any integrity you would do this.
reply by
ozzie
4/4/2002 (23:20)
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Sorry JC
You're really starting to grow on me.....