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Topic: Islam and Anti-Semetism

topic by Someone 4/10/2002 (11:21)

reply top There has been few posting lately on this board where people has sited verses from Bible denouncing the Jews for their acts. I would leave it to the expert in Bible to tell us if those verses are actually in Bible or not. However, the posting which caught my eye was by Seth saying, “there is much antisemitism in the Koran itself, including the fact that Mohammed himself order the slaughter and ethnic cleaning of Jews from Medina (1, 2, 3). “ It would be good to first agree on what anti-Semitism is. I would define it as words or actions that encourage violence and discrimination against Jews. However, this does not mean that action of Jew or Israel cannot be examined, evaluated, and criticized like the actions of other groups and/or nations. It is a common observation in US that any attempt to criticize Israel’s policies, actions of its leaders, or militant behavior of its settlers are branded as anti-Semitism. Pro Israel lobby in media is very successful in implementing this phenomenon. However, the victim of this approach is fair debate and discussion about the role Israel is playing in Middle East. This approach has discouraged an open dialog in US on how to solve the ME problems. On the other hand, this approach has encouraged conspiracy theories like, how Zionists control everything in US. After saying that lets spend some time in examining what Seth wrote. I would first like him to quote those verses where Muslims are encouraged to harass, kill, destroy, hate, or do any harm to Jews. Quran does mention the history of Israelites in detail. It tells us how Israelites were the people whom God choose to send one prophet after the other till the time when they rejected and tried to hanged Jesus, son of Marry. Quran tells us that after that attempt on the life of Jesus, (Islam differs with the common Christian belief that Jesus was hanged. Islamic belief is that he was ascended to haven alive and will descend later, at a preordained time. However, this is not the topic of this discussion here.) Israelites were condemned by God and the prophet hood was given to the family of Ishmael. However, nowhere while discussing the life of Israelites, Quran encourages random acts of violence against Jews as virtuous or make them part of faith. I would like to pose an intellectual challenge to the membership of this board to find verses in Quran that are anti-Semitic. It is important to note that few might attempt to do what one scholar said “cut and paste approach” where someone will cut a verse in the middle and bring it as a proof. Often people do incorrect translation of Quran too in their attempt to prove a point. Lets see if we can produce any verse which encourages Muslims to hate Jews. Let me say it again, “the verse needs to mention the term Jew when encouraging violence or any type of immoral act against them.” We all have seen translations like “kill them where you find them(unbelievers).” Very loose translation, missing the context and above all no mention of the term “Jews.” I would encourage anyone who is going to research Quran to use the translation by Yousuf Ali as it has a ton of commentary too. It will help one to understand the context in which the a verse was revealed. Second clarification. Seth said “Mohammed himself order the slaughter and ethnic cleaning of Jews from Medina.” Can he tell us how many were killed when that order was given? Zero. That event, when Mohammad gave the ultimatum to the Jews was when they broke the deal whcih they signed with people of Medina and tried to kill Mohammad. Before that event, there were active treaties between Jews and Muslims of Medina. The historical fact is that Muslims and Jews never fought a war before 1948. They might have fought while in the armies on different sides but never, according my studies, fought a war. On the other hand, there is very long history of wars between Muslims and Christian that are fought in the name of religion, i.e. Crusades. I raised these few points so that we might realize that the bad blood between Arab/Muslims and Jews/Israelis does not have a very long history. Even after 1948 we have times when the two sides sat down to resolve the issues. Seth quoted some of the headlines from Arab media about the lies whcih they spread about the Jews. Have we seen any such lies/propaganda before 1948? On what scale? This all started when Europe imposed their will on Arabs, with any consultation with Arabs. Their land was taken away from them by force and since then they are living a life which resembles more the Warsaw Ghetto in Poland then a free life. The best thing Jews can do is to be friends with Arabs. Sounds like double talk? Look back in history. In Muslim Spain, Muslims and Jews lived side by side. When queen Isabelle conquered Spain from Muslims, Muslims and Jews were given to two choices: leave or convert to Christianity. The fleeing Jews, a great number of them, decided to settle in another Muslim country, Turkey also called Ottoman Empire. Had it been an order of Quran to kill/hate/destroy Jews, then there would be no Jew in Muslim Spain or later on in Turkey. In order to win the hearts of Arabs, Israel does not need F-16 and Apache helicopters. What they need is to overcome their own anti-gentile attitude, they need to fight their double standard with the same force and vigor with which they ask the world to find anti-Semitism. Unless Israel find the inner strength and character to see the suffering of gentiles the same way as they view their own, Israel will continue to use F-16. What Israel needs to do is implement policies which will allow the native Palestinians their own state, as free as Israel itself is. Settlements, closed military areas, censorship, manipulation of US public opinion, and influencing US lawmakers may only guarantee US aid and arms but gives neither security nor peace.

reply by muslim_amercian 4/10/2002 (11:27)

reply top Forget it someone .. Kor'an is anti semetic indeed .. just like the bible and the torah! You see .. for propaganda reasons.. any documents ( especially devine non corrupted document) telling the history of Israelites missdeeds and deceipt would be called ' anti semetic' in modern psueado-zionizm terms. It used to be that zionism was a move to releif agony .. later it became a task to control the world indeed that is why non jews are on that wagon.

reply by JC 4/10/2002 (12:26)

reply top 'The best thing Jews can do is to be friends with Arabs. Sounds like double talk? Look back in history. In Muslim Spain, Muslims and Jews lived side by side. When queen Isabelle conquered Spain from Muslims, Muslims and Jews were given to two choices: leave or convert to Christianity. The fleeing Jews, a great number of them, decided to settle in another Muslim country, Turkey also called Ottoman Empire. Had it been an order of Quran to kill/hate/destroy Jews, then there would be no Jew in Muslim Spain or later on in Turkey.' Someone, I agree with you that Jews and Muslims need to establish a healthy and respectful relationship. I for one am very motivated to develop better relations with my Muslim neighbors, and have good relations with my friend who are from Muslim backgrounds. The truth is though, like me my Muslim friends are not very observant/religious. They complain to me about Muslim fundamentalists and how much they feel infringed upon by them. I often feel similarly about fundamentalist/orthodox Jews. Regardless of religious differences I am looking forward to Israel no longer occupying the West Bank and Gaza and the Palestinians having their own state. That being said, this will likely only happen when fundamentalists who are rejectionists have been marginalized and neutralized. i.e., Hamas and Islamic Jihad cannot be in control as their charter dictates the elimination of the Jewish state (see below). As a Muslim, are you prepared to accept a Jewish State in Israel in its pre-1967 border? Are you prepared to confront those who are not? I am prepared to confront Settlers who refuse to enable an independent Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza. Peace. THE HAMAS CHARTER ('Hamas' = 'Harakat Muqawama Islamiyya', Islamic Resistance Movement) Preamble:...'Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors.' The Imam and Martyr Hasan al-Banna Introduction: '...This is the Charter of the Islamic Resistance (Hamas) which will reveal its face, unveil its identity, state its position, clarify its purpose, discuss its hopes, call for support to its cause and reinforcement, and for joining its ranks. For our struggle against the Jews is extremely wide ranging and grave, so much so that it will need all the loyal efforts we can wield, to be followed by further steps and reinforced by successive battalions from the multifarious Arab and Islamic world, until the enemies are defeated and Allah's victory prevails. Thus we shall perceive them approaching in the horizon, and this will be known before long: 'Allah has decreed: Lo! I very shall conquer, I and my messengers, lo! Allah is strong, almighty.' Sura 58 (Al-Mujadilah), verse 21. Part I KNOWING THE MOVEMENT Article One - THE IDEOLOGICAL ASPECT The Islamic resistance movement draws its guidelines from Islam... Article Two - THE LINK BETWEEN HAMAS AND THE ASSOCIATION OF MUSLIM BROTHERS The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the wings of the Muslim Brothers in Palestine... STRUCTURE AND ESSENCE Article Three The basic structure of the Islamic Resistance Movement consists of Muslims who are devoted to Allah and worship Him verily... Article Four - The Movement welcomes all Muslims who share its beliefs and thinking, commit themselves to its course of action, keep its secrets and aspire to join its ranks in order to carry out their duty. Allah will reward them. Article Five - DIMENSIONS OF TIME AND SPACE OF THE HAMAS As the Movement adopts Islam as its way of life, its time dimension extends back as far as the birth of the Islamic Message and of the Righteous Ancestor. Its ultimate goal is Islam, the Prophet its model, the Quran its Constitution. Its spacial dimension extends wherever on earth there are Muslims, who adopt Islam as their way of life... Article Six - PECULIARITY AND INDEPENDENCE The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinct Palestinian Movement which owes its loyalty to Allah... Article Seven - THE UNIVERSALITY OF HAMAS By virtue of the distribution of Muslims, who pursue the cause of the Hamas, all over the globe, and strive for its victory, for the enforcement of its positions and for the encouragement of its Jihad, the Movement is a universal one...Whoever denigrates its worth, or avoids supporting it, or is so blind as to dismiss its role, is challenging Fate itself. Whoever closes his eyes from seeing the facts, whether intentionally or not, will wake up to find himself overtaken by events, and will find no excuses to justify his position... Hamas is one of the links in the Chain of Jihad in the confrontation with the Zionist invasion. It links up with the setting out of the Martyr Izz a-din al-Qassam and his brothers in the Muslim Brotherhood who fought the Holy War in 1936; it further relates to another link of the Palestinian Jihad and the Jihad and efforts of the Muslim Brothers during the 1948 War, and to the Jihad operations of the Muslim Brothers in 1968 and thereafter... ...Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah's promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: 'The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them; until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! Cited by Bukhari and Muslim' Article Eight - THE SLOGAN OF THE HAMAS Allah is its goal, the Prophet its model, the Quran its Constitution, Jihad its path and death for the case of Allah it most sublime belief. Part II OBJECTIVES MOTIVES AND OBJECTIVES Article Nine ...The state of truth has disappeared and was replaced by the state of evil. Nothing has remained in its right place, for when Islam is removed from the scene, everything changes. These are the motives. As to the objectives: discarding the evil, crushing it and defeating it, so that truth may prevail homelands revert (to their owners), calls for prayer be heard from their mosques, announcing the restitution of the Muslim state. Thus, people and things will revert to their true place. Allah is the one whose hold we see. Article Ten The Islamic Resistance Movement, while breaking its own path, will do its utmost to constitute at the same time a support to the weak, a defense to all the oppressed. It will spare no effort to implement the truth and abolish evil, in speech and in fact, both here and in any other location where it can reach out and exert influence. Part III STRATEGIES AND METHODS THE STRATEGY OF HAMAS: PALESTINE IS AN ISLAMIC WAQF Article Eleven The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine has been an Islamic Waqf throughout the generations and until the Day of Resurrection, no one can renounce it or part of it, or abandon it or part of it. No Arab country nor the aggregate of all Arab countries, and no Arab King or President nor all of them in the aggregate, have the right, nor has that right any organization or the aggregate of all organizations , be they Palestinian or Arab, because Palestine is an Islamic Waqf throughout all generations and to the Day of Resurrection. Who can presume to speak for all Islamic generations to the Day of Resurrection? This is the status (of the land) in Islamic Shari'a, and it is similar to all lands conquered by Islam by force, and made thereby Waqf lands upon their conquest, for all generations of Muslims until the Day of Resurrection. This (norm) has prevailed since the commander of the Muslim armies completed the conquest of Syria and Iraq , and they asked the Caliph of Muslims, Umar Ibn al-Khattab, for his view of the conquered land, whether it should be partitioned between the troops or left in the possession of its population, or otherwise. Following the discussions and consultations between the Caliph of Islam, Umar Ibn al-Khattab, and the Companions of the Messenger of Allah, be peace and prayer upon him, they decided that the land should remain in the hands of its owners to benefit from it and from its wealth; but the control of the land and the land itself ought to be endowed as a Waqf (in perpetuity) for all generations of Muslims until the Day of Resurrection. The ownership of the land by its owners is only one of usufruct, and the Waqf will endure as long as Heaven and earth last. Any demarche in violation of this law of Islam, with regard to Palestine, is baseless and reflects on its perpetrators. Article Twelve HAMAS IN PALESTINE: ITS VIEWS ON HOMELAND AND NATIONALISM Hamas regards Nationalism (Wataniyya) as part and parcel of the religious faith. Nothing is loftier or deeper in Nationalism than waging Jihad against the enemy and confronting him when he set foot on the land of the Muslims. And this becomes an individual duty binding on every Muslim man and woman; a woman must go out and fight the enemy even without her husband's authorization, and a slave without his master's permission.... Article Thirteen PEACEFUL SOLUTIONS (PEACE) INITIATIVES AND INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCES (Peace) Initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of this faith, the movement educates it members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: 'Allah is the all-powerful, but most people are not aware.' From time to time a clamouring is voiced, to hold an International Conference in search for a solution to the problem. Some accept the idea, others reject it, for one reason or another, demanding the implementation of this or that conditions, as a prerequisite for agreeing to convene the Conference or for participating in it. But the Islamic Resistance Movement, which is aware of the (prospective) parties to this conference, and of their past and present positions towards the problems of the Muslims, does not believe that those conference are capable of responding to demands, or of restoring rights or doing justice to the oppressed. Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the nonbelievers as arbitrators in the lands of Islam. Since when did Unbelievers do justice to Believers? 'And the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor with Christians, till thou follow their creed. 'Say: Lo! the guidance of Allah (himself) is the Guidance. And if you should follow their desires after the knowledge which has come unto thee, then you would have from Allah no protecting friend nor helper.' Sura 2 (the Cow) verse 120. There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiative, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility. The Palestinian people are too noble to have their future, their right and their destiny submitted to a vain game... Article Fourteen - THE THREE CIRCLES The problem of the liberation of Palestine relates to three circles: the Palestinian, the Arab and the Islamic. ...the liberation of that land is an individual duty binding on all Muslims everywhere... Article Fifteen THE JIHAD FOR THE LIBERATION OF PALESTINE IS AN INDIVIDUAL DUTY When our enemies usurp some Islamic lands, Jihad becomes a duty binding on all Muslims. In order to face the usurpation of Palestine by Jews, we have no escape from raising the banner of Jihad...We must spread the spirit of Jihad among the (Islamic) Umma, clash with the enemies and join the ranks of the Jihad fighters. The ulama as well as educations and teachers, publicity and media men as well as the masses of the educated, and especially the youth and the elders of the Islamic Movements, must participate in this raising of consciousness...We must imprint on the minds of generations of Muslims that the Palestinian problem is a religious one, to be dealt with on this premise... Article Sixteen EDUCATING THE (YOUNG) GENERATION ...it is also necessary to study conscientiously the enemy and its material and human potential; to detect its weak and strong spots.. THE ROLE OF MUSLIM WOMEN Article Seventeen The Muslim women have a no lesser role than that of men in the war of liberation... Article Eighteen The women in the house and the family of Jihad fighters, whether they are mothers or sisters, carry out the most important duty of caring for the home and raising the children upon the moral concepts and values which derive from Islam; and of educating their sons to observe the religious injunctions in preparation for the duty of Jihad awaiting them... Article Nineteen THE ROLE OF ISLAMIC ART IN THE WAR OF LIBERATION ...It is Islamic art which renews the activity, revives the movement and arouses lofty concepts and sound planning... SOCIAL SOLIDARITY Article Twenty ...The Nazism of the Jews does not skip women and children, it scars everyone...As we face this misconduct, we have no escape from establishing social solidarity among the people, from confronting the enemy as one solid body, so that if one organ is hurt the rest of the body will respond with alertness and fervor... Article Twenty One ...It is incumbent upon the members of the Hamas to look after the interests of the masses the way they look after their own interests... Article Twenty Two THE POWERS WHICH SUPPORT THE ENEMY The enemies...stood behind World War II, where they collected immense benefits from trading with war materials, and prepared for the establishment of their state...The forces of Imperialism in both the Capitalist West and the Communist East support the enemy with all their might, in material and human terms, taking turns between themselves... Part IV OUR POSITION VIS-A-VIS THE ISLAMIC MOVEMENTS Article Twenty Three The Hamas views the other Islamic movements with respect and appreciation. Even when it differs from them in one aspect or another or on one concept or another, it agrees with them in other aspects and concepts... Article Twenty Four Hamas will not permit the slandering and defamation of individuals and groups, for the Believers are not slanderers and cursers...Whenever the Hamas detects faulty positions and modes of conduct, it has the right to point to the mistake, to denigrate it, to act for spelling out the truth... THE NATIONAL (WATANIYYA) MOVEMENTS IN THE PALESTINIAN ARENA Article Twenty Five ...All the nationalist streams operating in the Palestinian arena for the sake of the liberation of Palestine may rest assured that they will definitely and resolutely get support and assistance, in speech and in action... Article Twenty Six The Hamas, while it views positively the Palestinian National Movements which do not owe their loyalty to the East or to the West, does not refrain from debating unfolding events regarding the Palestinian problem, on the local and international scenes... Article Twenty Seven THE PALESTINE LIBERATION ORGANIZATION The PLO is among the closest to the Hamas, for it constitutes a father, a brother, a relative a friend...the PLO has adopted the idea of a Secular State...Therefore, in spite of our appreciation for the PLO and its possible transformation in the future, and despite the fact that we do not denigrate its role in the Arab- Israeli conflict, we cannot substitute it for the Islamic nature of Palestine by adopting secular thought. For the Islamic nature of Palestine is part of our religion, and anyone who neglects his religion is bound to lose. 'And who forsakes the religion of Abraham, save him who befools himself' SuraII (Al-Baqra - the Co), verse 130 When the PLO adopts Islam as the guideline for life, then we shall become its soldiers, the fuel of its fire which will burn the enemies. And until that happens, and we pray to Allah that it will happen soon, the position of the Hamas towards the PLO is one of a son towards his father... Article Twenty Eight THE ARAB AND ISLAMIC STATES AND GOVERNMENTS ...The Arab states surrounding Israel are required to open their borders to the Jihad fighters, the sons of the Arab and Islamic peoples, to enable them to play their role and to join their efforts to those of their brothers among the Muslim Brothers in Palestine... NATIONAL AND RELIGIOUS ASSOCIATIONS, INSTITUTIONS, THE INTELLIGENTSIA, AND THE ARAB AND ISLAMIC WORLDS Article Twenty Nine Hamas hopes that those Associations will...mobilize the Islamic peoples ideologically, educationally and culturally in order to fulfill their role in the crucial war of liberation... Article Thirty ...Jihad means not only carrying arms and denigrating the enemies. Uttering positive words, writing good articles and useful books, and lending support and assistance, all that too is Jihad in the path of Allah, as long as intentions are sincere to make Allah's banner supreme. 'Those who prepare for a raid in the path of Allah are considered as if they participated themselves in the raid. Those who successfully rear a raider in their home, are considered as if they participated in the raid' (Told by Buykhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud and Tirmidhi) Article Thirty One THE MEMBERS OF OTHER RELIGIONS, THE HAMAS IS A HUMANE MOVEMENT ...Under the shadow of Islam it is possible for the members of the three religions: Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in safety and security. Safety and security can only prevail under the shadow of Islam... ...The Nazi Zionist practices against our people will not last the lifetime of their invasion, for 'States built upon oppression last only one hour, states based upon justice will last until the hour of Resurrection.'... THE ATTEMPTS TO ISOLATE THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE Article Thirty Two World Zionism and Imperialist forces have been attempting, with smart moves, and considered planning, to push the Arab countries, one after another, out of the circle of conflict with Zionism in order, ultimately, to isolate the Palestinian People... Hamas is calling upon the Arab and Islamic peoples to act seriously and tirelessly in order to frustrate that dreadful scheme and to make the masses aware of the danger of coping out of the circle of struggle with Zionism. Today it is Palestine and tomorrow it may be another country or countries. For Zionist scheming has no end, and after Palestine they will covet expansion from the Nile to the Euphrates. Only when they have completed digesting the area on which they will have laid their hand, they will look forward to more expansion, etc. Their scheme has been laid out in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and their present (conduct) is the best proof of what is said there. Leaving the circle of conflict with Israel is a major act of treason and it will bring curse on its perpetrators. 'Who so on that day turns his back to them, unless manoeuvering for battle or intent to join a company he truly has incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end.' Sura 8 (Al-Anfal - spoils of war), verse 16. We have no escape from pooling together all the forces and energies to face this despicable Nazi-Tatar invasion. Otherwise we shall witness the loss of (our) countries, the uprooting of their inhabitants, the spreading of corruption on earth and destruction of all religious values. Let everyone realize that he is accountable to Allah... Within the circle of the conflict with world Zionism, the Hamas regards itself the spearhead and the avant-garde. It joins its efforts to all those who are active on the Palestinian scene, but more steps need to be taken by the Arab and Islamic people and Islamic associations throughout the Arab and Islamic world in order to make possible the next round with the Jews, the merchants of war... Article Thirty Three ...calling upon the Arab and Islamic peoples as well as their governments, popular and official associations, to fear Allah in their attitude towards and dealing with Hamas... Part Five THE TESTIMONY OF HISTORY CONFRONTING AGGRESSORS THROUGHOUT HISTORY >Article Thirty Four Palestine is the navel of earth, the convergence of continents, the object of greed for the greedy since the dawn of history... ....Only iron can blunt iron, only the true faith of Islam can vanquish their false and falsified faith. Faith can only be fought by faith... Article Thirty Five ...the current Zionist invasion had been preceded by a Crusader invasion from the West; and another one, the Tatars, from the East. And exactly as the Muslims had faced those invasions and planned their removal and defeat, they are able to face the Zionist invasion and defeat it... EPILOGUE THE HAMAS ARE SOLDIERS Article Thirty Six The Hamas....does not seek fame for itself nor material gains, or social status. Nor is it directed against any one member of our people in order to compete with him or replace him....It will never set out against any Muslims or against the non-Muslims who make peace with it, here or anywhere else. It will only be of help to all associations and organizations which act against the Zionist enemy and those who revolve in its orbit...

reply by muslim_american 4/10/2002 (13:09)

reply top No .. my faith prevents me from rewarding aggression of one people against another! I am not willing to put my soul in the camp of people who approve some one annexing someone else's land, home, property, dignity. And I am certainly not able to allow the punch of thugs (majority approved) in ISRAEL that are killing people right NOW AS I WRITE THIS just because these people happened to be civilians Arabs in the village of freedom fighters. I do not want that sin on my soul. I do not want the sin of approving suicide or justify killing anyone’s children neither. But my word would have to for removing the original sin.. which is the before promise that created Israel that built on a very unjust and indeed CRIMINAL principal where' SOME ONE REWARDED THERE VICTEM BY GIVING THEM SOMEONE ELSE'S PROPERY' The Arabs have a saying about this “He who did not own gifted those who are not worthy”

reply by Wisso 4/10/2002 (15:26)

reply top Moslims were the ones who threated jews the best...moslims r the only ones who accepted to live side by side with jews.... and look at what we got in return for being so good with them...a PUNCH in the FACE!!!.....well fuck em i say..JIHAD BABY!!!

reply by JC 4/10/2002 (15:41)

reply top Please clarify your statement muslim_american: Are you saying you are not willing to accept and recognize an Jewish State called Israel within the 1967 borders? Yes or no?

reply by muslim_american 4/10/2002 (16:26)

reply top hmmm I am speechless!!

reply by Wisso 4/10/2002 (18:25)

reply top i ll answer that for u moslim.......NO FUCKING JEWISH STATE....NEVER....and if u want ur jewish state so bad...MAKE IT IN THE US where they apreciate garbage a lil more!!!

reply by JC 4/10/2002 (19:39)

reply top No need to be speechless muslim_american - just answer the question: Will you accept an Israeli state in pre-1967 borders? Yes or No.