I do not get it ..
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AuthorTopic: I do not get it ..
topic by
truth
7/8/2002 (13:48)
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This is a sincere question I hope a pro Zionist or a pro Israel person would answer.
- On this forum before today a lot of people posted some pretty sick things and they claimed that it is a part of 'Talmud'.
- Last post claims that Zionists could have co operated with some money bribe effort to save some holocaust victims and they did not.
- My question is. In the day of the Internet and goggle and so on. How come no one answered these claims with some FACTS ??? I mean even if it is had to research what really happened .. pro Israel always have a version of denial ready for distribution .. how come no one answered with that version ???
MORE puzzling to me .. about the Talmud posts ... Even if all Jews coming to this forum have no clue what Talmud is .. that in it's self is an answer .. you can reply and say .. WE DO NOT FOLLOW THAT TALMUD .. or if you do follow it you can say THAT
VERSE DOES NOT EXIST ..
I would really like to get an answer to those things because i am having a problem believe that you can spend all that effort defending Palestinian genocide .. but not at all defending what is supposed to be a holly book or faith or even Zionism 'HEROS according to you ' who started the whole thing ..
- please note 'you people are sick' does not qualify as a reply with facts .. it is does not even qualify as a propaganda!!!!!
reply by
Pro Zionist Pro Arab Person
7/8/2002 (14:47)
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truth - the reason no one bothers answering the hateful posts is because:

a) they are usually lies and don't warrant the honor of even being taken seriously.

b) I don't know about the others, but I don't really know the talmud very well so I can't speak to those issues.

c) I very sincerely believe that you are an arsehole who is not interested in truth or justice, but simply trying to harm a certain group of people because they are in a vicious fight over land with a group of people you come from or favor. You say there is a Palestinian genocide. There is no genocide. This is a war.
reply by
truth
7/8/2002 (14:51)
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Thanks for the insult it says much about you .
'I don't really know the talmud very well '
That implies that you do know it a little bit or have access to it .. the versus quoted with numbers are either in it or not .. my question was why have not you bothered LOOKING IT UP.
- your agument about those lies not being worth replying to .. It has been my experience that the ones you do not stand up for ( no matter how obscene they are) are the ones that get you .
reply by
SAMSON
7/8/2002 (17:21)
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They deny the ' Protocols of the elders of Zion' very strongly .They even executed those who own the book. That was in Rusia during their communist rule of terror. But they cannot deny the Talmud. This Book ; the Talmud is the one that jews learn from childhood. The 'Protocols' spirit and ideology is but an extension of the Talmud. They denied the 'Protocols' strongly, but hide the Talmud, and never show it to nobody. And they consider it more sacred than the Torah. It is very difficult to own. Though they established special universities to serve the Talmud. Go to radioislam.org, and micheal hoffman site. It is a book full of hate against Christians and Christianity. It has very dirty ideas about Jesus and His Mother. It is a lothesome book. All Israeli Zionist Rabbis are Talmudic Scholars.
Read:
http://www.hoffman-info.com/news.html
Also: radioislam.org...PLZ
reply by
ADAM
7/8/2002 (18:44)
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TRUTH!!....
IF YOU BELIEVE EVERYTHING THAT YOU READ, THEN I REALLY FEEL SORRY FOR YOU!!
WERE YOU BORN JUST YESTERDAY?!!!!
reply by
Feminist.
7/8/2002 (20:51)
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Well I read the Bible and I don't believe everything that is written in it because it is written by MEN, for MEN and interpreted by MEN!!!!
reply by
Bible & Other Religious Fables..
7/8/2002 (21:28)
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Find out about the Bible... Go to.. (1).. theskepticalreview.org ..(2).. atheist.org ..(3).. americanhumanist.org ..(4).. infidels.org ... The Talmud is another Book of Fables... Even more despicable & Immoral...In its beliefs & practices...
reply by
ADAM
7/8/2002 (23:47)
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HEY FEMINIST, THATS YOUR CHOICE. GOD HAS GIVEN YOU FREE WILL!!
END OF CONVERSATION.
reply by
Wilson to Truth
7/8/2002 (23:49)
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The following is a response to Zeurcher in a different discussion, but some of it addresses your questions.




Zeuercher - You are a very bright and clever person. No one ever said anti-semites were not intelligent. As John Calvin notes, however, you are a bit wacky.
Let me explain why I say this.
Anti-semitism is not just a base, tribalistic prejudice as Lynette so deftly describes. Indeed, we all contain and maintain fears and dislikes of 'others', often those most close to our 'own'. Anti-semitism is, however, an ideology. It is an incredibly seductive ideology that posits that all that is wrong with the world can be traced back and attributed to a single group of human beings -- Jews. It is the real life enactment of the 'scapegoat'. It has always been particularly attractive to those individuals with low self-esteem and a need to put down others in order to feel good about themselves. It can become quite obsessional for many folks and have a rewarding effect on their sense of well being. The more they attribute their own and the world's problems to these Jews, the more they avoid their own human frailties and inadequacies.

Think of the greedy non-Jewish banker who bilks his customers and then curses Jews for being greedy and corrupt.

The more anger the anti-semite expends towards Jews, the better he or she feels that they are somehow fighting all that is wrong in the world.

Now any group of people that is the recipient of such treatment is likely to become somewhat defensive. Jews more than other 'peoples' may be more defensive when they hear people make disparaging comments towards them as Jews. To any reasonable person this is understandable given the history of persecution and actual genocidal behavior towards Jews by anti-semites. (Please note I am using the term anti-semite to refer to Jews here, although semite also can refer to Arabs. For the purpose of this post I will use the term anti-Arab racism to describe hatred towards Arabs).

Given the long history of persecution of Jews, mainly in Christian Europe, but to a much lesser extent in Muslim lands, Jews have a very strong radar for threats coming from those followers of the anti-semitic ideology who wish to see Jews exterminated in the false belief that this will solve their own and the worlds problems. Indeed what a sad morning it would be for anti-semites when they killed the last Jew only to find that nothing had really changed, aside from the anti-semites no longer having Jews to use as a scapegoat. Surely in short order there would be a new group of Jews, be they Armenians, Slavs, or Latinos, who would become the recipient of the anti-semites ideological hatred. 'If there were no Jews we'd have to make some up.'

OK, sorry for my long windedness, but you did ask for a lengthy explanation.

Now on to the issue of Israel. Given the predicament Jews found themselves in as the targets of the hatred of the anti-semites in Europe, and relatively powerless to stop others from killing them in droves, the Jews decided it was time that they too had a country, just like the Germans had Germany, French had France, etc.. Herzel wasn't initially too hung up on where it should be, just that it should be. For the vast majority of Jews however, no other place than their ancestral homeland could be home.

Now as so many people in this forum repeatedly point out, many of the European Jews looked more European than Arab. Indeed the Jews had intermarried with the Europeans and mixed genes for 1800 years. It is not surprising then that the local residents of the Ottoman territory known as Palestine identified the Jews moving there with the previous waves of British and French colonizers. If one wishes to engage in these justification arguments, it should be pointed out, however, that 700,000 Jews of Arab background were forced to leave their Arab homelands and settle in Israel after 1948, approximately the same number of Palestinians who were unfairly dispossessed of their land by the Jews moving in and the European states deciding they should have a homeland.

Now Israel is a godsend for 2 people. Jews and anti-semites. Palestinians are the real losers in this equation and I have much empathy for their plight, although their behavior since then has caused this sympathy to dissipate.
Israel was great for the Jews because it came them a homeland, a haven for Jewish people to go to in the event of another Holocaust, and it made them a people with a land. It is not healthy for a people to not have a land.

Israel was great for the anti-semites, because it gave them incredible fodder to develop their ideology. Zionism is the belief that Jews should have a country in their ancestral homeland. Many Zionists are also committed to the Palestinian people having their first ever independent nation, side by side Israel in the historic homeland of both peoples. Of course, as in any group of people there are those who are cruel and inhumane and those who are just the opposite and the rest of us fall in between. Jews and Arabs have been engaged in a bloody battle since Jews started emigrating back to Israel. It is completely understandable that the local Arabs would want to resist Jews buying and moving onto their lands, but it is equally understandable that Jews who had no where else to go would defend themselves and fight back against the Arabs who wished to kill them.
As we all know, war is hell and battles are grisly. Jews fighting against another group, and winning, and sometimes engaging in the sort of brutal behavior common to the area, now became targets for anti-semites who would use all of their canon of hate literature to beat Jews over the head. Arabs, cleverly picked up on this historic anti-semitic ideology and ran with it. They've used it as a political tool to try to isolate Israel from the international community.
Now, don't get me wrong here. I am a good little Meretz devotee who wishes to see a Palestinian State living side by side with Israel. I always thought the settlement policy of the government was assinine and unfair to the Palestinians. Two things have made it harder to fight those forces within Israeli society that reject a 2-state solution:
1) Palestinian rejectionists and terrorists who have continuously attempted to terrorize Israelis and provoke such a harsh response that it will radicalize the Islamic world, infuriate the Western world, and bring upon the downfall of Israel.

2) Anti-semites who subscribe to an ideology that demonizes Jews and refuses to treat them like other groups of people. Due to the efforts of anti-semites who are not interested in a peaceful solution to the conflict between the Israelis and Palestinans, in fact, far from it, as it would take away their excuse to batter and demonize the Jews, it is difficult to oppose some Israeli policies without appearing to support those with an agenda consisting of harming all Jews.

I've taken enough of your time, and I appreciate you reading through all this, so to summarize, let me say that Jews are people like everyone else. Some good some bad, most in between like the rest of us. Hatred of Jews is a very seductive ideology, is particularly attractive to the weak and less confident, but is ultimately empty and false.
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a tragedy for two peoples, and the only real winners are the anti-semites.
Israelis engage is terrible behavior. Palestinians engage in terrible behavior towards Israelis. In my opinion the Palestinians have crossed several red lines that has delegitamized their cause, but I believe it is up to Israel to rise to the occasion and reach out their hand once more in an effort to make peace and become supportive neighbors instead of scared occupiers. This incredible risk on the part of the Israelis is made nearly impossible by the anti-semitism that is promoted by the likes of some in this forum.

I am trying to follow the advice I give to others about trying to help support the players attempting to resolve the conflict---be fair to both sides and describe the entire truth, as to not enslaves both people. And this is a bit wacky, don't you think?

Good night.
Peace be with you.
Shalom.
Salaam.
reply by
truth
7/9/2002 (1:37)
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I fail to see how that colonialistic apology look at the history of raping that middle east country and switching one form of it (ottoman empire) with another ( khazary)could help address my original question .. I still do not know if those sick verses are in the talmud or not .. let along if there is anyone alive today who actually follows it ( or admit to it).. I still do not know weather zionists actually contributed to the massacre of jews in europe like they contributed to the terror act against jews in the country i was born ...forcing them to migrate to israel...!!
I read hard and I still do not get it!!!!!
How come with all the jews on this forum no one is saying some thing like ..:-
- those verses do not exist.
- I was never tought the talmud eventhough i am a a jew ..
- Yes they exist and we do not understand them in english as they were posted..

ANY EXECUSE .. I STILL DO NOT GET IT.. And at this point i am starting to believe the worst!
If anyone sees an answer to my question posted here please be so kind as to highlighted for me.
reply by
Help ME
7/9/2002 (10:46)
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Do Muslims gang rape their women as punishment for the behavior of their family members?

I've heard that the Koran commands this.

Is this true?


Do Muslims control the media in Britain?
I keep reading this and no one has proven this false.

Does the Koran command Muslims to rule over non-Muslims?
reply by
Khaled
7/9/2002 (10:49)
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#1 is true in some parts of the Muslim world.

#2 is partly true. We Muslims do control some of the media in Britain.

#3 is completely true.
reply by
SAMSON
7/9/2002 (11:27)
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Wilson,
All your speach came out totally mixed up. You spoke about three measure topics:
(1)Europes history of persecution and actual genocidal behavior towards Jews.
(2)Zionist stuggle for creating a land for the Jews after they decided it was time that they too had a country, just like European ppl.
(3)The appologetic zionist phylosophy of the right to anihilate the nation of Palestine for the sake of creating Israel .
All the jewish inovative Phylosophies failed to connect those three topics togather. What you have said just now was a new miserable attempt to repeat the failure to whitewash the gigantic historical crime of modern history made by the jews.
However, you avoided the measure questions laid down by Mr.(truth). Why?? Because your respect for yourself cannot accept defending the ugly ideologies of the Talmud.
reply by
Wondering
7/9/2002 (11:56)
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SAMSON:
Just answer the question.

Does the Koran command Muslims to rule over non-Muslims?

Do some Muslims gang rape innocent women to punish their brothers?

Do Muslims control the media in Britain?

Why do you avoid these questions?
reply by
truth
7/9/2002 (12:10)
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I will answer because I can not imagine not to...

Do Muslims gang rape their women as punishment for the behavior of their family members?

I've heard that the Koran commands this. .

Is this true?

-Answer:-
It is agreed (agreed in Islam meaning that the Koran and the prophet and all 5 major Muslim scholars agreed to the rule that ...)
The punishment for any kind of rape is death! (NO EXCEPTIONS EVEN IF DONE BY MUSLIMS UPON NON MUSLIMS EVEN IN WAR)
In my life time that Pakistani incident is the first I heard of it... and when I read about it more it turned out to be a TRIBAL tradition rather than a relegious one.
I think it might be usefull to mention here that even in war muslims are not to kill an old person or a woman or a child .. not even cut a tree!! So you can imagine the sanctity of a woman's honor.
It might also be worth it to note that in marriage a woman or even a young woman CAN NOT BE MARRIED unless she AGREES to it. this was quite a shock for people in those days.and it was exactly the reverse of how arabs used to do it.

Do Muslims control the media in Britain?
I keep reading this and no one has proven this false.

- I am not informed enough to answer that ... but considering Princess Diana assassination and the following media black out I highly doubt it.


Does the Koran command Muslims to rule over non-Muslims?
-answer .. From the 1.2 billion Muslims that are in the world today and from the 1400 years practice of Islam the % of Muslims that believed they have a divine order to rule the world is negligible.
How ever .. The Koran and the prophet (puh) have set a lot of standards for what to do within the MUSLIM SOCIETY (DAR AL ISLAM) ..Just like god ordered Moses to KILL EVERY JEW WHO WARSHIPED THE CALF and did not repent upon his return from the mountain .. God also ordered Muslims to kill non believers in there mist .. In both cases the religion was still new and weak and having heretics in the mist of a believer society would have been fatal for the whole.
Non- believers do not include Christians or Jews.
Now .. The Islamic justification for going to war against OTHER NATIONS is ONLY two reasons .. Any other reasons have nothing to do with Koran or ISLAM.
First reason ... -If that other nation abuses its Muslims...
Second reason...-If that nation is preventing Muslims from asking its citizens to follow god's religion.
Again ..Any other reason for war ( except self defense of course) is not godly .. And has nothing to do with the religion ..
But I have to say here for the sake of fairness .. This has not been adhered to with 100 % accuracy except for the period during the prophet's life and 30 years after him ...
In fact .. After the 30 years have passed since (puh) died... Muslims even fought each other .. which is how we ended up with sheits and suna Muslims today.!!
SO the answer to number 3 is NO .. Muslims do not believe that GOD has chosen them to rule over the other humans .. They believe that all humans should worship god ..And that the way to invite them to god's worship should be with good deeds and good example.
reply by
Just Wondering
7/9/2002 (12:26)
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I read some stuff about Islam on the web. Is this true?

The fascist, warlike nature of Islam is embodied in the concept of holy war, or jihad. In Islam, humanity is divided into two groups, the umma (Muslims) and the Harbi (non-Muslims). The umma reside in the Dar al-Islam (the Land of Islam) and the Harbi live in the Dar al-Harb (the Land of Warfare). All acts of war are permitted in the Dar al-Harb. The ultimate goal is to stretch the boundaries of the Dar al-Islam over the entire globe. The Koran therefore instructs Muslims:

9.5-6.: 'Kill those who join other gods with God wherever you may find them.'

4.76.: 'Those who believe fight in the cause of God.'

8.12.: 'I will instill terror into the hearts of the Infidels, strike off their heads then, and strike off from them every fingertip.'

Muslims are told that those who perish while fighting a jihad will receive eternal rewards:

4.74.: 'Let those fight in the cause of God who barter the life of this world for that which is to come; for whoever fights on God's path, whether he is killed or triumps, we will give him a handsome reward.'

On August 23, 1993 the United Press International news service reported on an interrogation of Siddig Ibrahim Siddig Ali, one of the suspects in the World Trade Center bombing. During the questioning, Ali was asked what the significance of the Koran and Islam was in these attacks:

'Of course, don't forget God said in the Koran, in times like this, everything is lawful to the Muslim, their money, their women, their honors, everything. I give you as example [Egyptian President Hosani] Mubarak, a tyrant. He is killing people, good Muslims. We'll be called sinners in the eyes of God if we don't do something about it [he gives a quote from the Koran] ...infidels must be killed....and the Muslim when he dies it is the way to heaven. He becomes a martyr. A Muslim will never go to hell by killing an infidel.'

Once a city of the Harbi has been overtaken and conquered, the leaders can do what they like with the captured enemy. Pillage was encouraged, as was the rape and murder of all inhabitants, including women and children. Captives were also enslaved or sold at auction.

Bomb-making Islamic terrorists are a modern phenomenon, but they are carrying out a grand tradition of holy slaughter. History is overflowing with detailed accounts of atrocities committed in the name of Allah. During the Muslim invasion of Syria in 634, four thousand peasants were massacred. In Mesopotamia between 635 and 642, monasteries were ransacked and the monks slain. In Elam and Susa civilians were executed. In Egypt, in the towns of Behnesa, Fayum, Nikiu and Aboit, the Muslim solders murdered whoever they could find, including the elderly, women, and children. Tripoli was attacked and pillaged in 643. Carthage was destroyed and its people slain.

Around the eleventh century, Muslims massacred the people of India and justified it by citing the passages from the Koran about slaying idolaters. The invaders destroyed countless temples and works of art. In Somnath, 50,000 Hindus were slain. A Muslim general killed thousands of peaceful Buddhists in 1193, declaring that as idolaters they had no right to live. He also took care to destroy their library. In the 14th century, Firuz Shah, tyrannical Muslim ruler of northern India, attacked a village where a Hindu religious fair was being held and ordered all participants to be put to death.

In addition to these hideous crimes inspired by Koranic verses, there were also massive forced conversions, abductions and enslavement of non-Muslim people. Every year, for about 600 years, the Nubian kingdom was forced to send a tribute of slaves to the Muslim rulers in Cairo. In 781, 7000 Greeks were enslaved after a battle at Ephesus. At the capture of Thessalonica in 903, 22,000 Christians were sold into Muslim slavery. In 1064, a Muslim general destroyed Georgia and Armenia and enslaved the few inhabitants he did not slaughter. In Muslim-conquered territories of Southern Europe, one-fifth of all Christian children were taken from their parents and impressed into infantry duty for Muslim armies of conquest. For three hundred years, starting around 1350, as many as a thousand children a year were removed from their families in this way.

reply by
ARAB
7/9/2002 (12:26)
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To Khaled.

#1 Check earlier posts on the rape incident in Punjab

#2 Give me a single piece of evidence that arabs control the press in Britain. I'll give u a week to find out.If anything besides a couple of left of center newspapers and a number of brave journalists, The British media is very much still pro-israeli.(but of course the brits have a mimimum of decendy, unlike their american counterparts)

#3 The Koran , like the Talmud,the Bible , the Torah etc has a lot of stuff in it that is outdated and is irrelevant to today's world.Many muslims accept that fact. Others dont. (Which is also the case with your religion i.e Judaism)

#4 Picking a nickname like Khaled is a bit misleading. i will call u Moshe if u dont mind.

Very very naughty to pretend to be someone else.
reply by
Moshe
7/9/2002 (12:29)
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How did you know my name?!!

Drats. Spoiled again by SuperARAB.

;-)

reply by
truth
7/9/2002 (14:02)
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I still do not get it. was there an answer somewhere?? please highlight it.
reply by
Sincere
7/9/2002 (14:23)
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On this forum before today a lot of people posted some pretty sick things and they claimed that it is a part of 'Talmud'.
- Last post claims that Zionists could have co operated with some money bribe effort to save some holocaust victims and they did not.


Analyze - The Nazis were notorious for extorting money out of American Jews to pay for Jews in Europe to get out an go to either Israel, Shanghai, USA, Portugal, or Britain. The Nazis would often take the money and then go back on their word and send the person to a concentration camp.

Zionists in British controlled Palestine were in contact with the Nazis trying to get them to send Jews to Israel. I cannot speak to the issues you bring up around Zionist trying to get Jews in Europe killed because I don't know about this history. I do know that the murder of millions of innocent Jewish people in Europe was not due to the efforts or lack of efforts of Jews living in what is now Israel. To imply so is truly assinine.

As for your questions about the talmud, you'll have to query a religiously educated person. Can't help you there buddy. But I can say that like the Koran and the Christian Bible there are all sorts of dated issues and rules which are no longer practiced. At least by 95% of the Jews today.
reply by
SAMSON
7/9/2002 (14:26)
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#3 The Koran , like the Talmud,the Bible , the Torah etc has a lot of stuff in it that is outdated and is irrelevant to today's world.Many muslims accept that fact. Others dont. (Which is also the case with your religion i.e Judaism)-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ARAB:
As usual: the same wicked jewish deception. Now you are trying to introduce your Talmud stealthly as a Holly Book compared with The Quran, The Bible, and The Torah. The Talmud was written by the Jewish Rabbis as being the words of Mosses. The Talmud is the antithesis of Mosses, Jessus and Mohammad. Now that the Talmud is exposed after a long time of hiding you try to pass it thru to the unaware as a respectable book of religion. This book is written by the devil. Jesus Christ ordered the 'Pharisees' to burn it. They refused; then conspired to kill him. They added to this book every filthy accusations against Him and His Mother. The Talmud is the greatest book of revelations for the Zionist Movement.Mind you the Ethiopian Jews (The Falasha) have no knowledge of the Talmud. They are treated badly in Israel because of this ignorance.
I strongly believe that all the calamities that befallen upon the Jews throughout the ages was their obedience to this Talmud..
As to the comparison between the great three holly books (Quran, The Bible and Torah); it is a science of its own right. Keep the Talmud away!!.. Zionist!!
reply by
truth
7/9/2002 (14:28)
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But considering that i KNOW A LOT OF JEWS IN MY LIFE ... their life style DOES NOT reflect any of that sick behaviour..
Is it in the talmud or not ??? and if so .. what % of jews really follow it or even EVER READ it??? and are these people the most pro israel ??? or is it just the ultra right wing or what .. that is why I was asking .!!!
I just refuse to believe that in this day and age some one can hold a book that contain this sort of ideas to be HOLLY! but yet I never saw a FACTUALL dismmissal of these allegations!!!
reply by
SAMSON
7/9/2002 (14:39)
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Israel Shahak Speaks the Truth!
Jewish Religion, Jewish History
The Weight of 3,000 Years
By Israel Shahak, with a foreword by Gore Vidal. Published by Pluto Press (London, 1994).




Bookreview


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


When the Roman historian Tacitus pointed out 19 centuries ago that the Jews are unique among the peoples of the world in their intense hatred and contempt for all peoples but their own, he was only repeating what many other scholars had discovered before him. For the next 1,900 years other investigators came to similar conclusions, either from a study of the Jews' religious writings or from a study of the Jews' behavior toward non-Jews.

Notable among these was the reformer, Martin Luther, who in 1543 wrote in 'Von den Juden und Ihren Lugen':

'Does not their Talmud say, and do not their rabbis write, that it is no sin to kill if a Jew kills a heathen, but it is a sin if he kills a brother in Israel? It is no sin if he does not keep his oath to a heathen. Therefore, to steal and rob, as they do with their usury, from a heathen is a divine service. For they hold that they cannot be too hard on us nor sin against us, because they are of the noble blood and circumcised saints; we, however, are cursed goyim. And they are the masters of the world, and we are their servants, yea, their cattle...
'Should someone think that I am saying too much, I am not saying too much, but much too little. For I see in their writings how they curse us goyim and wish us all evil in their schools and their prayers.'

The Jews responded to Luther like they responded to all the others. They put him down as just another 'hater,' blinded by religious bigotry. And today that's still the Jews' standard answer to everyone who says or writes anything about them except the most fawning praise.

When British newsman William Cash, Los Angeles correspondent for London's Daily Telegraph, reported late last year in a magazine article the simple fact that the executives in Hollywood's motion picture industry are nearly all Jews, they shrieked at him, 'Hater!' and denied his fact. When famous actor Marlon Brando later repeated the same fact, he was as well attacked for being an 'anti-Semite'.

Thus, Israel Shahak's book 'Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of 3,000 Years' is all the more important for being a document by a aknowledgeable Jew -- a Jewish 'insider' -- about the beliefs and behavior of his fellow Jews. Born in Warsaw in 1933, Shahak spent a portion of his childhood in the concentration camp in Belsen, from which he immigrated to Palestine in 1945. He grew up in Israel, served in the Israeli military, and became a chemistry professor. Like all Israelis, he became fluent in Hebrew. He also became acclimated to the peculiar moral atmosphere of Israeli society: a combination of overweening arrogance and deceit, a mixture of pugnacious self-righteousness and duplicity.

Unlike his fellow Israelis, however, Professor Shahak is deeply troubled by this peculiar atmosphere. Whereas the Jews around him take it for granted that the goyim on whom they depend for economic, military, and diplomatic support are too stupid ever to figure out what the Jews think about them and say about them behind their backs and plan to do to them when they can, and too sheeplike ever to take effective action if they do figure it out, he worries. He remembers that the Romans figured it out, and they consequently sacked Jerusalem and ended their cult in Palestine. He remembers that the Germans figured it out, and that's why he became an involuntary tenant in a concentration camp. He's worried that if his fellow Jews continue behaving as they always have, they will get themselves into some really serious trouble -- again.

In particular, Professor Shahak is concerned about the behavior of those of his people who adhere to 'Judaism'. He is not one of these himself, and so he is able to look with some degree of objectivity at the mixture of superstition, Jewish chauvinism, and hatred of non-Jews which makes up the Jewish religion and its sacred writings. He deplores traditional Jewish teachings, not only because of the danger that some new Martin Luther will come along and spill the beans to the Gentiles, but because of the spiritually debilitating effect these teachings have had on the Jews themselves. Of the world of medieval Jewry in Europe, the world of the ghetto and the shtetl which modern Jewish writers refer to in euphoric tones as a world of quaint tradition and piety, Shahak says: 'It was a world sunk in the most abject superstition, fanaticism, and ignorance ...'

He cites a number of specific instances of the ways in which Jewish religious authorities have kept their flocks under control. In general, the rabbis have taught their fellow Jews that their Gentile neighbors are spiritually and morally unclean; that they are subhuman, on a level with the beasts of the field; and that they hate Jews and must be hated in return. Jews are taught that the Christian religion is a religion fit only for animals, and that its founder, Jesus, was the son of a prostitute and is presently immersed in a pit of boiling excrement in hell.

Among the Hassidim (Hebrew for 'pious ones') all of these teachings are kept current. Shahak points out that a central thesis of the Hassidic doctrine is that only Jews are human beings, and that the universe was created for them alone. Non-Jews were created only to be used by Jews. Although this teaching about the subhumanity of Gentiles is most open and explicit among the bearded, sidelocked, black-hatted Orthodox Jews that one sees in Jewish strongholds such as New York City, it comes from the core of Jewish tradition and is accepted to a greater or lesser degree by all pious Jews. It is, for example, a specific tenet of the Jewish Defense League and is cited in the membership handbook for that group.

Especially frustrating to Professor Shahak is the clever deception which his fellow Jews use to conceal the true nature of Judaism from their Gentile neighbors. Regarding the veil of false piety which conceals from Gentile eyes the malevolent doctrine of the Hassidim, he writes: 'A chief deceiver in this case, and a good example of the power of deception, was Martin Buber. His numerous works eulogizing the whole Hassidic movement (including Habbad) never so much as hint at the real doctrines of Hassidism concerning non-Jews.' Buber (1878-1965) promoted Hassidism in Germany during the rise of the National Socialists -- in fact, until 1938, when he left for Palestine -- and Shahak considers Buber's efforts, despite their deceptiveness, at least partly responsible for the National Socialist reaction to the Jews.

Another example of Jewish deception given by Professor Shahak concerns the etymology of the Yiddish word for a Gentile girl, shiksa. He cites the popular English-language book 'The Joys of Yiddish' (New York, 1968), by Leo Rosten, which tells its readers that shiksa comes from the Hebrew word sheqetz, meaning 'blemish'. Writes Shahak, 'This is a barefaced lie, as every speaker of Hebrew knows. The Megiddo Modern Hebrew-English Dictionary, published in Israel, correctly defines sheqetz as follows: 'unclean animal; loathsome creature, abomination...' '

Professor Shahak writes with passion. He evidently feels that liberating Jews everywhere from the shackles of their misanthropic superstitions and freeing Israeli state policy in particular from the stifling influence of Judaism is a matter of some urgency. He focuses our attention especially on the inherent hatefulness of Judaism with citations from a number of Jewish religious writings.

In a chapter titled 'The Laws against Non-Jews,' he writes:

'...[T]he Halakhah, that is the legal system of classical Judaism -- as practiced by practically all Jews from the 9th century to the end of the 18th and as maintained to this very day in the form of Orthodox Judaism -- is based primarily on the Babylonian Talmud. However, because of the unwieldy complexity of the legal disputations recorded in the Talmud, more manageable codifications of talmudic law became necessary ... The most authoritative code, widely used to date as a handbook, is the Shulhan 'Arukh...'
He then cites the teaching of this code regarding homicide:

'According to the Jewish religion, the murder of a Jew is a capital offense and one of the three most heinous sins (the other two being idolatry and adultery). Jewish religious courts and secular authorities are commanded to punish, even beyond the limits of the ordinary administration of justice, anyone guilty of murdering a Jew ... When the victim is a Gentile, the position is quite different. A Jew who murders a Gentile is guilty only of a sin against the laws of Heaven, not punishable by a court. To cause indirectly the death of a Gentile is no sin at all.
'Thus, one of the two most important commentators on the Shulhan 'Arukh explains that when it comes to a Gentile, 'one must not lift one's hand to harm him, but one may harm him indirectly, for instance by removing a ladder after he had fallen into a crevice ... there is no prohibition here, because it was not done directly.' ...

'A Gentile murderer who happens to be under Jewish jurisdiction must be executed whether the victim was Jewish or not. However, if the victim was Gentile and the murderer converts to Judaism, he is not punished.'

Then Shahak gives us a rabbi's answer to an Israeli soldier who has asked whether or not it is proper to kill Arab women and children. In his answer the rabbi quotes from the Talmud: 'The best of the Gentiles -- kill him; the best of snakes -- dash out its brains.'

Perhaps even more offensive are the Jewish beliefs on sexual matters. Shahak writes:

'Sexual intercourse between a married Jewish woman and any man other than her husband is a capital offense for both parties, and one of the three most heinous sins. The status of Gentile women is very different. The Halakhah presumes all Gentiles to be utterly promiscuous and the verse 'whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue [of semen] is like the issue of horses' is applied to them... Therefore, the concept of adultery does not apply to intercourse between a Jewish man and a Gentile woman; rather the Talmud equates such intercourse to the sin of bestiality...
'According to the Talmudic Encyclopedia: 'He who has carnal knowledge of the wife of a Gentile is not liable to the death penalty, for it is written: 'thy fellow's wife' rather than the alien's wife ... and although a married Gentile woman is forbidden to the Gentiles, in any case a Jew is exempted.'

'This does not imply that sexual intercourse between a Jewish man and a Gentile woman is permitted -- quite the contrary. But the main punishment is inflicted on the Gentile woman; she must be executed, even if she was raped by the Jew: 'If a Jew has coitus with a Gentile woman, whether she be a child of three or an adult, whether married or unmarried, and even if he is a minor aged only nine years and one day -- because he had willful coitus with her she must be killed, as is the case with a beast, because through her a Jew got into trouble.''

The Talmud's overriding concern with matters of money and property mirror that of the Jews, and Professor Shahak offers a number of hair-splitting examples of Jewish beliefs on the subject and the way in which distinctions are made between the property of Jews and Gentiles, and between Jewish dealings with another Jew and with a Gentile. Two of these examples will suffice here:

'If a Jew finds property whose probable owner is Jewish, the finder is strictly enjoined to make a positive effort to return his find by advertising it publicly. In contrast, the Talmud and all the early rabbinical authorities not only allow a Jewish finder to appropriate an article lost by a Gentile, but actually forbid him or her to return it...
'It is forbidden to defraud a Jew by selling or buying at an unreasonable price. However, 'Fraud does not apply to Gentiles, for it is written: 'Do not defraud each man his brother'...''

Shahak points out that 'the Halakhah interprets all such idioms [as 'each man his brother' or 'neighbor'] as referring exclusively to one's fellow Jew.'

How have the Jews managed to keep teachings of this sort concealed from the Gentiles among whom they live? The truth of the matter is that they have not always been able to do so. Luther was not the only Christian scholar who learned Hebrew, peered into the Talmud, and was horrified by what he saw. Sometimes the Jews were able to bribe the Christian authorities to overlook such things, but throughout the later Middle Ages there were prohibitions and burnings of talmudic literature by outraged popes and bishops. The Jews developed a clever system of double bookkeeping to circumvent such 'persecution'. They modified or deleted the offending passages from new editions of the Talmud, and they made up a separate compendium -- Talmudic Omissions, or in Hebrew Hesronot Shas -- which circulated surreptitiously among the rabbis. In Israel today, feeling cocky enough to dispense with most such deceptions, the Jews are putting the passages which formerly had been omitted or modified back into the latest editions of the Talmud or the Shulhan 'Arukh in their original form. They are still careful with translations into Gentile tongues, however. Professor Shahak gives an example:

'In 1962 a part of the Maimonidean Code ... the so-called Book of Knowledge, which contains the most basic rules of Jewish faith and practice, was published in Jerusalem in a bilingual edition, with the English translation facing the Hebrew text. The latter has been restored to its original purity, and the command to exterminate Jewish infidels appears in it in full: 'It is a duty to exterminate them with one's own hands.' In the English translation this is somewhat softened to: 'It is a duty to take active measures to destroy them.' But then the Hebrew text goes on to specify the prime examples of 'infidels'who must be exterminated: 'Such as Jesus of Nazareth and his pupils, and Tzadoqand Baitos [the founders of the Sadducean sect] and their pupils, may the name of the wicked rot.' Not one word of this appears in the English text on the facing page (78a). And, even more significant, in spite of the wide circulation of this book among scholars in the English-speaking countries, not one of them has, as far as I know, protested against this glaring deception.'
Israel Shahak is a rare Jew indeed, and his book is essential reading for anyone interested in the problem of the Jews.





reply by
truth
7/9/2002 (14:47)
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Thank you for the answer but you kind of ended it with ' the problem of the jews' which is repugnant to me.!!
I was hoping for a jew to answer me .. I am familiar of israel shahak's work .. but out side of some really right wing nuts in israel I am just wondering if talmudian followers are indeed a small % of jews .. just like evangilicans and bin ladin- sharing cults are in christianity and islam.
a recent jewish answer would have helped me guess on that since there is no way to be sure.
reply by
Sincere
7/9/2002 (17:08)
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The vast majority of Jews in the World are very non-orthodox. That is, while they believe in God, they are not fundamentalist by any means, and therefore would not necessarily 'follow' the Talmud. They may study it and use it to raise questions, but if you've ever hung around with Jews you'll know that we are big on questions and not real into folks who have 'answers' that haven't been critically thought through.

There is a term used in academia: He is a 'talmudic thinker'. It means that the person always thinks of the counterargument to what he arguing and discusses it publicly. It is not all that different from Hegel's dialectical process.

Hope that helps.
reply by
truth
7/9/2002 (24:00)
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thanks sincere but your answer suggests that the word ORTHOZOX means a talmudian not a torah follower??
If that is true .. other than orthozox and secular or liberal .. which jews exactly follow the torah not the talmud ?? I mean what would israel shahak be ??? he is not a liberal!!!and he could not be a talmud follower.
Also .. I know some orthozox jews .. and they do not seem to subscribe to any of those obscene quotations of talmud .. they just seem to be more outspoken against jesus (puh) and more strict to there practise .. non of the sick stuff I was wondering about.
reply by
TheAZCowBoy
7/10/2002 (16:28)
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TAC: Here TRUTH gnaw on these questions to the German Zionist Jews for a while--OK?

Re: 'Ten questions to the Zionists
by Rabbi Michael Dov Weissmandl ZT'L
Dean of Nitra Yeshiva

IS IT TRUE that in 1941 and again in 1942, the German Gestapo offered all European Jews transit to Spain, if they would relinquish all their property in Germany and Occupied France; on condition that:
a) none of the deportees travel from Spain to Palestine; and
b) all the deportees be transported from Spain to the USA or British colonies, and there to remain; with entry visas to be arranged by the Jews living there; and
c) $1000.00 ransom for each family to be furnished by the Agency, payable upon the arrival of the family at the Spanish border at the rate of 1000 families daily.

IS IT TRUE that the Zionist leaders in Switzerland and Turkey received this offer with the clear understanding that the exclusion of Palestine as a destination for the deportees was based on an agreement between the Gestapo and the Mufti.

IS IT TRUE that the answer of the Zionist leaders was negative, with the following comments:
a) ONLY Palestine would be considered as a destination for the deportees.
b) The European Jews must accede to suffering and death greater in measure than the other nations, in order that the victorious allies agree to a 'Jewish State' at the end of the war.
c) No ransom will be paid

IS IT TRUE that this response to the Gestapo's offer was made with the full knowledge that the alternative to this offer was the gas chamber.

IS IT TRUE that in 1944, at the time of the Hungarian deportations, a similar offer was made, whereby all Hungarian Jewry could be saved.

IS IT TRUE that the same Zionist hierarchy again refused this offer (after the gas chambers had already taken a toll of millions).

IS IT TRUE that during the height of the killings in the war, 270 Members of the British Parliament proposed to evacuate 500,000 Jews from Europe, and resettle them in British colonies, as a part of diplomatic negotiations with Germany.

IS IT TRUE that this offer was rejected by the Zionist leaders with the observation 'Only to Palestine!'

IS IT TRUE that the British government granted visas to 300 rabbis and their families to the Colony of Mauritius, with passage for the evacuees through Turkey. The 'Jewish Agency' leaders sabotaged this plan with the observation that the plan was disloyal to Palestine, and the 300 rabbis and their families should be gassed.

IS IT TRUE that during the course of the negotiations mentioned above, Chaim Weitzman, the first 'Jewish statesman' stated: 'The most valuable part of the Jewish nation is already in Palestine, and those Jews living outside Palestine are not too important'. Weitzman's cohort, Greenbaum, amplified this statement with the observation 'One cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews in Europe'.



There are additional similar questions to be asked of these atheist degenerates known as 'Jewish statesmen', but for the time being let them respond to the ten questions.

These Zionist 'statesmen' with their great foresight, sought to bring an end two two-thousand years of Divinely ordained Jewish subservience and political tractability. With their offensive militancy, they fanned the fires of anti-Semitism in Europe, and succeeded in forging a bond of Jew-hatred between Nazi-Germany and the surrounding countries.

These are the 'statesmen' who organized the irresponsible boycott against Germany in 1933. This boycott hurt Germany like a fly attacking an elephant - but it brought calamity upon the Jews of Europe. At a time when America and England were at peace with the mad-dog Hitler, the Zionist 'statesmen' forsook the only plausible method of political amenability; and with their boycott incensed the leader of Germany to a frenzy. And then, after the bitterest episode in Jewish history, these Zionist 'statesmen' lured the broken refugees in the DP camps to remain in hunger and deprivation, and to refuse relocation to any place but Palestine; only for the purpose of building their State.

The Zionist 'statesmen' have incited and continue to incite an embittered Jewish youth to futile wars against world powers like England, and against masses of hundreds of millions of Arabs.

AND THESE SAME ZIONIST 'STATESMEN' HEEDLESSLY PUSH THE WORLD TO THE BRINK OF ANOTHER TOTAL WAR - REVOLVING ENTIRELY AROUND THE HOLY LAND.

What may befall the Jewish inhabitants of Palestine, of the Arab crescent, Europe, or the USA; is of no concern to these Zionist leaders. The rising anti-Semitism in the Western World is the product of their 'statesmanship'.

Under the guise of 'love of Israel', the Zionist 'statesmen' seduced many Jews to replace devotion to the Torah and its Sages with devotion to the scoundrel who founded Zionism. It is of no little significance that Herzl originally sought conversion of the Jews as a solution to the problems of the Diaspora. When he realized that this was not acceptable to the Jewish masses, he contrived Zionism as a satisfactory alternative!

A look into history reveals that this very same type of 'statesmen' opposed the call of Jeremiah the prophet to yield to the minions of Nebuchadnezzar at the destruction of the first Temple. Five centuries later, Rabbi Yochonon Ben Zakai appealed to the people to surrender to Titus the Roman to avoid bloodshed. The 'statesmen' rejected this appeal, and the second Temple was destroyed by the Romans. --- And now for the past fifty years, the Zionist 'statesmen' rebuff the leadership of our Sages; and continue in their policy of fomenting anti-Semitism. When will they stop?? Must every Jew in America also suffer?? - Even the Nazi monsters had more sense, and gave up their war before all Germany was destroyed. The Zionist 'statesmen' ridicule the sacred oath which the Creator placed upon the Jews in the Diaspora. Our Torah, in Tractate Ksubos, folio 111, specifies that the Creator, blessed be He, swore the Jews not to occupy the Holy Land by force, even if it appears that they have the force to do so; and not rebel against the Nations. And the Creator warned that if His oath be desecrated, Jewish flesh would be 'open property', like the animals in the forest!! These are words of our Torah; and these concepts have been cited in Maimonides' 'Igeres Teimon', 'Be'er HaGola', 'Ahavas Yehonosson', and in 'Toras Moshe' of the Chasam Sofer.

IT IS COMMON KNOWLEDGE THAT ALL THE SAGES AND SAINTS IN EUROPE AT THE TIME OF HITLER'S RISE DECLARED THAT HE WAS A MESSENGER OF DIVINE WRATH, SENT TO CHASTEN THE JEWS BECAUSE OF THE BITTER APOSTASY OF ZIONISM AGAINST THE BELIEF IN THE EVENTUAL MESSIANIC REDEMPTION.

Yidden - merciful sons of merciful fathers - how much longer must holy Jewish blood continue to be shed??

The only solution is:

The Jewish people must reject, outright, a 'Jewish State'.

The Jewish people should accept the US compromise.

We must depose the atheist-Zionist 'statesmen' from their role as Jewish leaders, and return to the faithful leadership of our sages.

We beseech the Nations to open all doors to immigration - not only the doors of Palestine.

Peaceful, non-Zionist religious personalities in Palestine, (particularly from the native population) and their counterparts in the Diaspora, should engage in responsible, face-to face negotiations on behalf of the Jewish people, with the British and the Arabs; with an aim of amicable settlement of the Palestine issue.



Every Jew is obliged to pray to the Blessed creator, for in Him lies all our strength. Let us bear in mind that our prayers be forthright. One should not entreat the Creator to provide a banquet on Yom Kippur, and one can not perform a ritual ablution with a dead bug in his hand. Similarly, we should avoid the untenable position of the robber who prays for Divine help in carrying out his crime. We should pray that Zionism and its fruits vanish from the Earth, and that we be redeemed by the Messiah with dispatch.

A prisoner is released only when he has served his time, or if he is pardoned by the President for good behavior. If he attempts escape and is apprehended, his term is lengthened, besides the beating he receives when he is caught.

Faithful Jews- for over three and one-half thousand years, in all parts of the world, through all trials, our grandfathers and grandmothers marched through seas of blood and tears in order to keep the Faith of the Torah unswervingly. If we have compassion for ourselves, for our women and children, and for the Jewish people, we will maintain our golden legacy today. We have been sentenced to exile by the King of Kings because of our sins. The eternal blessed be He, has decreed that we accept the exile with humble gratitude until the time comes, or until we merit His pardon through repentance if we seek to end the exile with force, G-d will catch us, as our sages have forewarned, and our sentence becomes longer and more difficult.

Many times in the past have segments of our people been defrauded by false messiahs - but none of the false messiahs has been as fallacious and delusory as the lie of Zionism. With our historical experience as our guide, no retribution has been or will be greater than the retribution for giving credence to Zionism. If we wish our exile-sentence commuted, we must appeal through repentance; and through total physical and spiritual observance of the Sabbath, laws of family purity, and study of Torah.

Let it be clearly understood that never in Jewish history (even in the time of Jeroboam or Achav) have such hostile atheists stood at the helm of the Jewish people as today.

How can we plead to the Almighty for mercy while we tolerate these vile, 'wicked' leaders as spokesmen! Beloved brothers - let us cleanse our ranks and cleanse our midst; let us entreat the Almighty through prayer, repentance, and fulfillment of mitzvos that He alone redeem us, immediately.

PS: AS for the Talmud--these are the Jewish holy books of racism and race superiority.

TAC,




reply by
truth
7/10/2002 (16:58)
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Thanks for post .. But that means that every jewish reader in this forum is a non torah beleiver does not it ?