israel shows great restraint
All Posts post a reply | post a new topic

AuthorTopic: israel shows great restraint
topic by
claudia
8/5/2002 (12:51)
 reply top
i think israel show great restraint. they no attack palestinis for terror the way other country would. i no longer support palestinis like i did. they are hamas and they love blood.
reply by
John Calvin
8/5/2002 (13:37)
 reply top
No, Hamas does not love blood. Neither do any of the other groups who resist the occupation. Occasionally you hear from their leaders in the media. Their attitude is solemn, it is regretful, it is filled with sorrow that such actions have become necessary. They understand that this is a HUMAN TRAGEDY.

They do not have the option of laying down their arms and ceasing their attacks. That would mean extermination as a nation and a people. No people, no nation in the world can tolerate such an occupation without resitance. But UNDERSTAND THIS, Hamas- their leaders- have absolutely nothing in common with their supposed supporters like AZ COWBOY who turn the whole complex issue and horrible tragedy and terrible sacrifice of individual life into a demeaning, supercillious rhetorical ego-game as if all the blood and toil and sacrifice that is going on both sides is nothing more than a Sunday afternoon football game. No one would prefer to KILL AZ COWBOY than the people he pretends to support. No one with a modicuum of real interest in obtaining Justice and Peace for the Palestinians is going to credit Cowboy or his smart-alecky ilk with one single point towards the resolution of this conflict.
reply by
TheAZCowBoy
8/5/2002 (14:07)
 reply top
Re: CLAUDIA ( showing heavy symptoms of a chronic PMS condition sez ).

'i think israel show great restraint. they no attack palestinis for terror the way other country would. i no longer support palestinis like i did. they are hamas and they love blood.

TAC: Yes, CLAUDIA them nasty Palestinian's are just horrible people, huh?

Of course your brethern in Israel and the territories could use a good arse kicking themselves to show them the way to peace, huh?

Like one big KA-BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM in the Knesset while fat ass Sharon, Olmert, Gissen and Gold are planning their next 'self defense' strategy against basically unarmed Palestinian civilians.

Go polish your Menorah honey bunny, you're getting very little done here on the MER site.

TheAZCowBoy,

PS: Hey Johnny 'C,' I have some MIDOL's for you too--you seem not to have recovered from your own PMS problems of two weeks ago, huh?
reply by
Josie
8/5/2002 (14:39)
 reply top
Caludia - Please ignore the AZCowboy. He is a bore.

John Calvin - What is Hamas's agenda and how does it differ with that of other Palestinians. Should we Americans be supporting Hamas or hoping that they are subdued by other Palestinian groups?
reply by
Sorko to Josie & Claudia
8/5/2002 (14:43)
 reply top
This is dated, but may help you understand Hamas and Palestine better.


In the wake of last month's attacks, leading Muslims in America and other Western countries rushed to condemn the killings. Yet they were slower to condemn the likely killers. 'They, of course, condemn the destruction that happened on September 11,' says Daniel Pipes, the director of the Middle East Forum, a think tank in Philadelphia. 'The leading organizations have never, however, condemned the Taliban, Osama bin Laden, militant Islam.'

American Islamic leaders reply to such charges with indignation. They protest that it is unfair, even bigoted, to demand that they disassociate themselves from people with whom they have never been associated. 'What we've found is that other religions don't have to defend their faith when extremists do maniacal acts,' Salam al Marayati, the director of the Muslim Public Affairs Office, told The Tampa Tribune. In the same vein, Imam Abdul Rauf, of the Al-Farah Mosque in New York City, told CBS News's 60 Minutes: 'That's just as absurd as associating Hitler with Christianity or David Koresh with Christianity. There are always people who will do peculiar things and think that they are doing things in the name of their religion.'

For some time now—since well before the September 11 attacks—some Muslims have been arguing that the whole concept of the 'Islamic terrorist' is an unfair stereotype. 'A terrorist,' writes Syed Soharwardy in an article published online, apparently before September 11, by an outfit called Muslims Against Terrorism, 'should be identified and condemned as a terrorist, but a terrorist should not be identified with his/her religious affiliation.' Why, Soharwardy demands to know, is the terrorist who happens to be a Muslim always identified as a Muslim terrorist? 'The white supremacist groups in the Western world are fundamentalist Christians,' he writes, yet 'their terrorist attacks on blacks and other ethnic groups aren't reported and associated with their religion.'

This is a reasonable argument that many reasonable people have made in other contexts. During the 1950s, loyal American leftists resented and resisted demands that they specifically denounce Communism or be presumed fellow travelers. More recently, mainstream African-Americans likewise protested demands that they disassociate themselves from Louis Farrakhan or other controversial figures, with whom they have nothing in common apart from skin color. In 1994, peaceable Jews everywhere were swift to condemn the massacre of 29 praying Palestinians by an Israeli settler named Baruch Goldstein; but they were equally swift to deny, rightly, that Goldstein's demented act had anything to do with Judaism or with themselves.

The false-accountability smear is the oldest trick in the book, and anyone who has been on the receiving end knows how effective it is. Even to assert that you should not have to defend yourself sounds defensive. All sympathy, then, to Muslim leaders in America and other Western countries who protest being held accountable for what they do not say about events they had nothing to do with.

But in this particular case, they are wrong. On September 11, history saddled them with a special obligation to speak out in specific and unequivocal terms against terror in any and all its guises, not only for the good of their country but for the good of their faith.

Like it or not—and no one likes it—Islamic terrorism is a real and distinct phenomenon. Religion is at its heart. The terrorists themselves say so. Even the names of their groups trumpet the connection: Armed Islamic Group; Gama'a al-Islamiyya (Islamic Group); Hamas (an Arabic acronym for Islamic Resistance Movement); Hezbollah (Party of God); Al-Jihad; Palestine Islamic Jihad; and so on. As a theoretical point, it is certainly fair to say that these groups misinterpret and pervert Islam, but in practice that hardly matters, since what they are doing is establishing and rapidly extending a new religion with the divine right to murder as its creed. In a video late last year, a bin Laden henchman issued a call to Muslims everywhere: 'Forward to shed blood.' That is the liturgy.

The terrorism itself—not just the September 11 killings but the stream of massacres committed by Hamas and Hezbollah and others—is undoubtedly the work of twisted individuals, not of religion as such. It may well be true that if the fanatics of the world did not happen to be Muslims, they would be something else. But in a crucial respect, religion is the essential and unique ingredient of the current terrorist war.

What sets this war apart is its reliance on suicide as an indispensable weapon. In New York City and Washington, hijackers fly planes into buildings. In Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, bombers blow themselves up in discotheques and restaurants. In northern Afghanistan, an assassin posing as a journalist kills himself along with the charismatic leader of the anti-Taliban Northern Alliance.

The last time the world saw anything like this was almost a century ago, when, writes Pipes, 'the Assassins, a fanatical religious sect that flourished in the 12th century, developed jihad suicide into a powerful tool of war that succeeded in killing dozens of leaders.' The Assassins, he noted, believed that by killing they were earning immediate entry to paradise.

People will kill themselves for a cause, a country, or a creed, but not reliably. To be confident that the attacker will finish the job, you have to make him not just willing but eager to die. Religion offers the only reliable inducement. Without its religious element, the current war would be literally inconceivable.

Although it is not clear that hate-filled zealots listen to anybody, the only people who might even in theory get through to them are the leaders of their faith. I believe the Western imams when they say that the new jihadists' creed is (to put it in Western terms) a heresy, even a sacrilege. But only clerics can discredit a heresy, and in order to do so, they need to be willing to confront and denounce actual heretics.

Instead, the message has been mixed, muddled, muttered. For instance, Imam Rauf told 60 Minutes: 'Fanaticism and terrorism have no place in Islam.' But then he went on to say: 'I wouldn't say that the United States deserved what happened, but the United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened.' (Note the verb. The crime 'happened'?) Many mainstream Islamic leaders have let their support for the Palestinian cause wash over into acceptance of Palestinian terrorists' tactics. Fox News recently dug up a tape in which Abdurahman Alamoudi, the president of the American Muslim Council, told a rally in Washington last year: 'Hear that, Bill Clinton: We are all supporters of Hamas. Allahu akbar. I wish to add that I am also a supporter of Hezbollah.' Three days after the September 11 attacks, this man joined President Bush at the National Cathedral ceremony.

Before September 11, it was possible to dismiss such support for Hamas as a rhetorical flourish, but now the stakes are apparent. Today, a world-historic schism is taking place. Islam, a faith of life, is birthing a parasitic cult of death: a cult of mass murder, nihilism, and ecstatic rage. And this black progeny threatens to consume its parent. Everywhere, it is winning converts in Islam's name. Consider this celebration of slaughter, reported by The Washington Post in August: 'After a Hamas suicide bomber killed 15 people and wounded dozens in a central Jerusalem pizzeria Thursday, Palestinian boys clapped and chanted slogans in the streets of West Bank cities. Middle-class Palestinian professionals, including secular people formerly estranged from Hamas's fundamentalist Islamic agenda, sang the bomber's praises. Everywhere, Palestinians pronounced themselves content, even thrilled, with the suicide bombing.'

That is the future that beckons to Islam. No, it is not America's or Israel's fault. No, a change in American policies will not stop it. To resist the cult of death, life-affirming Muslims will have to challenge it in mosques and on television and in the streets and everywhere, even if that means criticizing, say, Hamas at least as sharply as they criticize, say, Ariel Sharon. Western Muslims didn't ask for this battle, but if they continue to shrug and say, 'Don't look at us, look at Israel,' they will lose it anyway.

'Islam was hijacked on that September 11, 2001,' a Muslim cleric named Hamza Yusuf said at a White House prayer meeting last month. The metaphor may have been more apt than he realized. Islam has indeed been hijacked, and not just by the terrorists of September 11, but also by Hamas and Hezbollah and all the others who commit or condone murder in God's name. If respectable Muslim leaders continue to shrink from confronting and resisting the hijackers, we now know what will happen—to the hijackers, to the passengers, and to the people on the ground.



Jonathan Rauch is a senior writer and columnist for National Journal magazine and the author of, among other books, Government's End: Why Washington Stopped Working (PublicAffairs Books, 1999) and Kindly Inquisitors: The New Attacks on Free Thought (University of Chicago Press, 1993). This essay first appeared in the National Journal on October 12, 2001
reply by
John Calvin
8/5/2002 (17:33)
 reply top
It's hard to get a clear picture of Hamas's agenda. For one thing, their website is not available in the U.S. Secondly, translations of the various documents they put out are rarely genuine and mostly the work of Israeli apologists. But we do know that Hamas is respected in Palestine for its social work: providing educational oportunities, health clinics and financial support to the poorest. Their agenda has been described as 'the complete destruction of Israel' though it is probably more accurate to to describe their goals as 'ending the occupation' and 'dismantling the zionist state.' which is interpreted as 'the destruction of Israel'.

As for the garbage preceeding this reply I would suggest as an antidote Fawaz A. Gerbeges 'American and Political Islam'. Much of the violence and so-called 'terrorism' of different radical groups is a response to the absolute repression of democratic political rights in countries like Palestine, Egypt, Turkey and Algeria, and the reluctance of leaders in America to deal in any way even with moderate groups like the Muslim Brotherhood.
reply by
ADAM
8/5/2002 (17:52)
 reply top
IT IS REAL FUNNY WHEN JOHN SAYS HAMAS DOES NOT LOVE SHEDING CHILDREN'S BLOOD!! THESE PEOPLE ARE PROS WHEN IT COMES TO KILLING WOMEN & CHILDREN.
PLUS PALESINIANS ARE NOT A NATION & NEVER EVER HAD A COUNTRY OF THEIR OWN. THEY ARE JUST LIKE KURDS!
reply by
ADAM
8/5/2002 (18:23)
 reply top
YES AND MY SHIT DOES NOT STINK AND MY FARTS ARE BLUE IN COLOR AND GLOSSY IN NATURE!!!!!!
reply by
Sorko
8/5/2002 (18:24)
 reply top
When people start describing the Muslim Brothehood as the moderates you know we are in big trouble.

John - I hope you're not gay because if you are you are persona non grata by the Muslim Brotherhood. Tolerant fellows. I know some nice holy rollers with similar beliefs.
reply by
Resources
8/5/2002 (19:13)
 reply top
Go to.. (1).. hoffman-info.com/palestine.html ..(2).. ukar.,org/.shamir0u8.shtml ..(3).. Broadcaster Plans War Crimes Indictment of Ariel Sharon for Gaza Massacre.... boston.com/dailynews/207/economy/_Broadcaster_Plans_War_Crimes ..l(4).. whatreallyhappened.com ...7/27/2002 ... (5).. IOF Abuses Palestinians... http://pal.linefeed.org/uploads/dscf0003.gif ..(6).. Usrael Massacre... jerusalem-times.net/article/news/details/detail.asp ..(7).. geocities.com/darkcinema/condemnation.htm
reply by
ISRAELI PROPAGANDA
8/6/2002 (2:51)
 reply top
ISRAELI .... 'Restraint'.... Is Pure Propaganda... They like to repeat this fable over & over again ... Because they believe if they repeat a LIE often enough, people will begin believing it... Another is 'Israel us the ONLY democracy in the area'.. Bull Shit !!!... The Palestinian Authority is an elected government... So is Turkey, Lebanon and Egypt !!... When these zIONISTS We must counter these zIONIST Lies when ever & where ever it pops up... because they like to keep on repeating these lies to propagandize people... Someone should list these LIES that hey like to repeat over & over again... electronicintifada.net ... A.S.S haron uses an F-16 with a laser guided ONE TON J-Dam bomb to blow up a crowded apartment building in the middle of the night... KILLING 15 people, 9 childen, wounding 170 Then calling it one of his 'greatest sucesses'.... then the Israeli ass-kissers say Israel uses 'great restraint'.... They feed people all this propaganfa garbage....and expect to believe it because they repeat it so often... WQe must counter this by constantly repeating THE TRUTH !!!!... and SPREAD IT EVERY WHERE... ON ALL WEBSITES !! & ALL FORUMS... alaqsaintifada.com ... whatreallyhappened.com .... jerusalem.indymedia.org .... palestinechronicle.com ... ramallahonline.com
reply by
TheAZCowBoy
8/7/2002 (12:19)
 reply top
Dear chunky JOSIE--your years supply of MIDOL has also been FEDEX'ed to you!

NO CHARGE!

But you have to promise to hold Johnny 'C's' hand---he's on his 1st trauma filled menses, ya know?

TheAZCowBoy,

'To know him is to love him!'