Hurting the Cause
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AuthorTopic: Hurting the Cause
topic by
Barb
1/5/2002 (15:08)
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I utterly fail to see how suicide bombers, strapping bombs to themselves, taking innocent lives with them PURPOSELY by using jetliners as missiles, helps the Palestinian cause. All it accomplishes is to cause the world to see them as the 'uncivilized crazies' that they are. They are not helping the Palestinians -- they are permanently hurting their cause like no other. No doubt it will and has brought attention to the cause --unfortunately negative attention and disgust.
reply by
TheAZCowBoy
1/5/2002 (16:07)
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URPost: 'Hurting the cause.'

Interesting how people who have not walked a single solitary step in the moccasins of the Palestinian's have so much to say about their behavior.

Lemmie ask you dearie, if some zealot thug had:

1. Kicked you off your land where you had lived for several generations at the point of a Uzi, US suppied F-16, Apache helicopter gunship bristling with hellfire/TOW antitank missiles.

2. If this thug had murdered your father who resisted, put a trancheon to your mother--busting a few teeth-- and then murdered your brothes and sisters that had resisted with rocks and bare hands and the thug responded with US supplied 'Fletcher' antipersonnel cannon shells fired from Israeli Merkava tanks, shells that tear into human flesh, exploding and sending thousands of steel darts into the air that turn a human being into a mass of bloody tissue and bones.

3. If your water had been shut off and re-routed to the 'illegal' Jewish Settlement that now overlooked your property--or better yet 'straddled' it.

4. If 1,000,000 of your people had been run off their land since 1947 and 400+ of your villages and dozens of Mosques had been razed and burned to the ground by these Zionsit hoodlums.

5. If some SOB from across the sea was arming there thugs and murderers with the most sophisticated weapons in his arsenal.

As a people with no army to defend you, you would 'not' strap any explosives to your body and go after the murderous SOB's?

Yeah Right!

PS: Finally the US has WTC happen to it ( some people call it 'Poetic Justice.' ) and it goes berzerk murdering innocent people in Afghanistan with a fury of a thousand devils in retribution.

PPS: Yassar ( excuse the pun ) The latest version of 'The Riddle of The Sphinx' WHY DO THEY HATE US, seems to be one the US administration and Jewish Occupied media :( and you, of-course :) cannot seem to figure out!
reply by
John Calvin
1/5/2002 (16:31)
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The 'world' doesn't see them as 'uncivilized crazies', that's George Bush's and the jingo-zenophobic, zionist view of them- NOT EVEN the attitude of a majority of Israelis (though they encourage Americans to think like that}. After all, Jews who suicidally resisted Hilter ( e.g. in the Warsaw Ghetto}- are recognized as HEROES.

Barb needs to come out from under the influence of American Newspapers and Media, Right-wing, Left-wing or whatever. Try a book like 'The Yellow Wind' by David Grossman or 'Cities of Salt by Abdelrahman Munif. Get some real humanity into your blood.
reply by
John Calvin
1/5/2002 (21:15)
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And, another point, what is it with this mantra about 'innocent people', 'innocent lives', innocent victims'? People who live in a democracy and are responsible for the character of their government, elect their own representatives and are free to engage their opinion in any number of forums- legal and otherwise- are not innocent of the policies and actions of their government. And, if they are so concerned about innocents- babies and teenagers who arn't old enough to vote- they should consider that the responsibility for their safety and well being is on their own shoulders and to make the necssary corrections in the way they vote and the manner in which they communicate with their representatives, not hide like cowards behind the victimnization of the persons charged to their care.

But Nooooooooooooo! We live in under the 'regime of democracy' that is to say, under the tyranny of the unlearned, filled with people who do nothing but quarrel about old wive's tales- under a specious veil of public consent- who think of nothing but gratifying their own passions.
reply by
Barb
1/6/2002 (2:59)
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Both of you are as nuts as the suicide bombers. No wonder the world has so many problems. I, for one, will NEVER try to justify the atrocities of killing innocents in such a sickening, cruel, and grotesque way or any way for that matter. And a hell of a lot more people than George Bush think, sorry, KNOW they are 'crazies!' People cannot 'own' a territory; neither Israelis or Palestinians -- both are ignorant, dogmatic religious zealots, and I, for one, wouldn't care if both fell off the face of the earth today.
reply by
Barb
1/6/2002 (3:18)
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And NO, I definitely would not strap explosives to my body. I would simply go to live somewhere where's it peaceful and people left me alone to live in peace. The way I see it, let the crazies kill themselves. The world would be better off without them.
reply by
DJFLux
1/6/2002 (7:45)
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Sorry to say Barb, it ain't as easy as going off to some other place and living there in peace. Living in peace from the American prespective means living in lies. You say: 'The way I see it, let the crazies kill themselves. THE WORLD WOULD BE BETTER OFF WITHOUT THEM.' Are we getting any solutions from that kinda view? Living in diginity and truth is one thing, but living in lies leaves only further
repercussions for the future. Unlike you and the majority of americans, SHORT TERM solutions NEVER work for the rest of the world. The palestinian/ israeli issue is a good example of this. People should stop answering huge issues with their so-called 'quick and effective' solutions, cause truth is, IT WON'T WORK!

If you or anyone doesn't care for the Palestinian issue, then don't bother even bringing up the issue in the first place.

reply by
John Calvin
1/6/2002 (13:54)
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'The only REAL and LASTING answer to this conflict is TOLERANCE'-Barb.
See what I mean about facile nostrums,the 'aura of rectitude and common sense' that comes out of the mouths of bigots and hypocrits.
reply by
scot
1/6/2002 (14:56)
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i'm baaaack and i see you ragheads are still trying to justify murder. do not listen to them barb, they will pollute your mind with fools thoughts. if you listen to them whine you can hear the poor me attitude, the feeling of my situation is everyones fault but my own).
these are the kind of people who can only talk others into strapping on bombs and blowing up babies and women. they are to lazy or to cowardly to return to the land they say they love and improve things by working smart and hard. they want to hide behind the united states and cry out everytime the jews slap them a good one. what they do not tell you is the reason the jews slap them, its becouse some palestinian fool was talked into strapping on a bomb and murdering a baby or old woman.
these people who talk their brothers into strapping on bombs are educated in my country and with my tax dollars, they can spell and punctuate correctly, but all they can do with this gift is spread murder. they are the head of the snake.
the palestinians should learn that their actions speak louder than any words ever can and this is how the civilized world reads their message (headlines; animal is talked into attacking innocent civalized humans.)
terrioism is like trying to get something for nothing, or better yet its like cheating your playing partners at poker, you may have a few small wins but you will gain a reputation of a lie and a cheat so no one will play with you anymore.
reply by
John Calvin
1/6/2002 (15:03)
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'terrioism is like trying to get something for nothing, or better yet its like cheating your playing partners at poker, you may have a few small wins but you will gain a reputation of a lie and a cheat so no one will play with you anymore.'

Scot:your communication skills have made a significant improvement, and this nice trope is the proof.This is obviously something that you've experienced personally, not just read in Time Magazine.

Don't give up, you're bound to break through one day!
reply by
scot
1/6/2002 (16:34)
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thanks, some how i new you of all people could apprciate that. i's is studenun boss. i's tryun do bettur.
reply by
Barb
1/6/2002 (22:03)
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Call me what you want, Calvin, (bigot, etc.) but I do care. I don't even know anyone personally who is directly affected by it, but I know that children and innocent people are affected greatly day in and day out in the mideast due to their stubborn RELIGIOUS DOGMATISM. Tolerance IS the only answer. I am just soooooo sick of the constant fighting between the two sides -- the Israeli people are as bad as the terrorists. They are pushy, arrogant, violent, bigoted, and many are terrorists themselves or do not even see themselves that way. They have no right to kick the Palestinians off their land as if they had a 'right.' So if anyone thinks I am on the side of the Israelis, think again. I am not. I am not on any side that PURPOSEFULLY destroys innocent life. Period. Go after the people who are responsible. Do not blow up beautiful and innocent children on school buses. You will NEVER gain the world's sympathy by such actions. There is NO justification for such actions as that, Calvin, and if you think there is, you are sick.
reply by
barb
1/6/2002 (22:07)
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One thing I forgot: The ones who are BRAINWASHED are the 'suicide bombers.' They're too stupid to even know what it is they are doing.
reply by
Barb
1/6/2002 (22:10)
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A note to Calvin: The Jews that 'suicidally avoided' Hiltler did not take innocent bystanders with them!
reply by
Barb
1/6/2002 (22:13)
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Calvin, since that little snobbish snipe was probably directed at me, 'something you didn't just read in Time Magazine...' how are YOU personally involved/affected in this mideastern conflict may I ask?
reply by
DJFLux
1/7/2002 (2:31)
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Hey people, it's a shame that people are always blinded by the attrocious acts of some palestinian groups, and during the course of which fail to see the other 'dogma' or should I say 'nationalistic dogma' Israel contains.

Everyweek more than a hundred jewish refugees claim citizen status in Israel as they think it's their right to live and work in the land of zion. And we continue with the time wasting policies of the Israeli government which is meant to buy time for more settlements. I'll tell you one thing, those policies are only empty promises to the Israeli settelers, be expected to see more palestinians coming back and reclaiming their homeland, by whatever means necessary. If suicide is the only way, then sadly we'll continue to see more of it. Now I'm not justifying anything, but neither am I saying: 'I'm surprised!', this is just the sad way that fate made happen.

Scot on the other hand is the kinda person who thinks that being an american makes his opinion more special than others, please scot stop trying to paint this horrible image of the average american will ya. I've met many so-called 'biggoted' americans and was able to have good discussions with them, hard headed in some issues, they can be very useful to converse with, you(Scot) I'm affraid, are just some stereotype, so please don't achieve status by coming in and making childish remarks, in fact if there's one thing I can safetly say is that if you were among the many innocent killed by suicide bombers, I'd have no sympathy for YOU, only because both forms of evil are gone from the face of the earth.

Remember it's not a question of chosing sides, but how things should be dealt with EQUALLY. Once again I remind you that money, intrests and so on always played a role in conflicts and it's all about the $$$ than anything else, otherwise what would Israel loose by returning and sharing the land once belonged to the Palestinian people.
reply by
D
1/7/2002 (3:59)
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Barb, you are right in that the deliberate murder of innocents is never justified. So when an American plane bombs a village in Afghanistan because there are 'Al-Quaeda terrorists' in the area - quite deliberately - knowing full well that the village is also teaming with Innocent civilians, do you hold the same view that this is wrong? Or are you going to try to justify the killing of innocents by refering to that nonsense about 'we're nor targeting civilians, they just get in the way'? Sorry, but if you know there are civilians in a village and then proceed to bomb it in pursuit of a few 'terrorists' you are targeting innocents and for that there is no justification.
reply by
Anne
1/7/2002 (6:09)
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I just have one little statement to make.

It is high time people in the West started to ask themselves WHY people in the non-western world despise us so??? Are we the architects of our own MISERY??? Are our policies flawed?? And the BIGGY of them all........is democracy all that is cracked up to be, and does it serve us well???? Opps......that is 4 little statements. Regards, Anne.
reply by
Barb
1/7/2002 (16:22)
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Anne,
We don't live in 'misery.' Do you? Living in the U.S. is what many people throughout the world dream of! So I'm confused. If you mean are we the architects of 9/11, that's another story! The way I understand it, in my 'simplistic way,' as I've been accused, is that Osama and his buddies were pissed off that Americans were 'dirtying' holy land by stepping on the soil. Why is it OK for Muslims to think Americans are 'dirtying' soil but it's not OK for Israelis to think Muslims don't belong? I'm confused by this obvious contradiction of posters on this board.
In answering a question above, do I think it's OK for Americans to bomb Afghan village when they 'know' civilians are there, NO I DO NOT THINK IT'S OK AT ALL. I am not a hypocrit.
reply by
John Calvin
1/7/2002 (18:32)
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Barb, I was born in April, 1948. My 'personal concern' with the situation in Palestine is as a citizen and patriot. I am protesting the misguided, self-destructive policy of my government, the creation of the American 'security state', the abrogation of the principles of justice and equity upon which this nation was founded and for which my ancestors fought and died in every war since 1776 and some before that!

'The ones who are BRAINWASHED are the 'suicide bombers.' They're too stupid to even know what it is they are doing.'

This is George Bush's lying line. Most of the suicide bombers have had college degrees and could have in no way been prevented from exploding themselves against the zionist enemies of humanity.

'The Jews that 'suicidally avoided' Hiltler did not take innocent bystanders with them!'

They killed plenty of 'innocent' soldiers who were just 'following orders' and 'doing their duty', they had children too and the rebels in the Warsaw Ghetto would have killed them to if they could have got their hands on them. Besides which, as other have pointed out, the zionists have no problem shooting stone-throwing kids EVERYDAY DAY AFTER DAY RIGHT AT THIS MOMENT- HEROES ALL!

Toleration doesn't consist of dismissing people 'on the other side' as sick or brainwashed.

This is war- Heil Hitler Bush declared it. What do you want- that everyone he declared war against should lie down and let the tanks roll over them?
If you're upset now,mjust wait and see the future! Thousands and thousands are going to be killed, everyone one of them completely innocent in someone's view.
And who the hell cares about getting 'the sympathy of the world', an abstract non-entity to begin with, and if it were anything real a suit only fit for slaves! Sympathy My A--, Adolf!
reply by
mesmart
1/7/2002 (20:45)
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Barb,

I do not know whether or not 'The Jews that 'suicidally avoided' Hiltler did or did not take innocent bystanders with them!'

I do know however that the holocaust survivors who immigrated to my country robbed us of our basic human right!
They raped us of our dignity, they molested our land; they devoured our culture, oppressed, and humiliated us.


Its Ironic to me how the very people who escaped oppression turned around and oppressed another people!!



reply by
libre
1/7/2002 (24:25)
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First of all, as a woman, I am not miserable living under democracy. Even though we still have quite a ways to go before women achieve full equality with men, I would rather be living here than certain other countries where women live under black sheets and are denied the right to higher education, healthcare and the right to vote.

Second of all, I don't believe that all this hatred of the U.S. in the Muslim world is ALL due to U.S. foreign policy and Israel. Obviously, they are major factors but underlying all of that is a general strong discontempt for everything from Mickey Mouse to McDonalds. There is a greater struggle out there that's not just about kicking American soldiers out of the Holy Land, liberating the Palestinians from the Israelis or rooting out Al-Qaeda. In a way it is a clash of civilizations, pitching consumerism and capitalism against religious fundamentalism, Western culture against their culture, etc. (Jihad vs. McWorld is a great name for this confict) And yet there's a real paradox in that the same people who preach hatred against the U.S. actually take part in
American culture (check out Mohammed Atta's posters on his bedroom walls). This situation only mirrors the virtual mess of Muslim grievances which is ensnarled with many factors, not just U.S. foreign policy and Israel. This is why I don't think that the 'war on terrorism' will ever be won, as Bush says. If the U.S. changes its unjust policies, such as it's blind support of Israel, and if Israel disappeared off the face of the Earth, we would still be dealing with Muslim rage.
reply by
Barb
1/8/2002 (2:31)
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Great comments, Libre. I think you are right about if we changed our policies tomorrow, etc. certain Muslims would still hate the U.S. Call me dense, but I just don't get it. If the U.S. went about our business, let the mideast conduct theirs, just bought oil, didn't try to 'influence' prices, (OPEC sets them anyway-- that's why gas is DOWN right now. They want us to continue using it! Why would there still be rage? And is this rage really only directed towards us or all western society because the two societies couldn't be more different. OK, call me arrogant, but I think the fundamentalists over there are extremely backward thinking, illiterate and unrealistic. They force 'their' women to live under terrible oppression. Do they feel the U.S./western society is trying to impose/force our lifestyle on them somehow? If so, how? They don't allow TV, etc. No matter what, though, I will never try to justify these 'suicide' bombers because they are not 'suicide' bombers -- they are murderers. And yes, so are the pig-headed dogmatic Israelis! Both groups are devoutly stubborn.
reply by
scot
1/8/2002 (12:28)
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whow barb, you stirred em up.
reply by
scot
1/8/2002 (12:30)
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right on libre.
reply by
Barb
1/8/2002 (14:44)
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Scot,
I do have a way of stirring them up, don't I? I think it's because they know I'm right. They are actually trying to 'justify' MURDER -- these so-called 'suicide bombers.' Suicide: 'the taking of ONES OWN LIFE.' Get it? NOT someone else's! Now they'll try to paint me as an Israeli sympathizer because their minds are so narrow... just watch...
reply by
DJFLux
1/8/2002 (22:11)
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No it's not that we think you sympathise with Israel...in fact you made mention to that many times, and it's been acknowledged. Rather it's your simple mindedness attitude to a huge issue to which YOU have not so much knowledge in. So here's the generalisation I'm trying to make:

You only see and talk. We see, study and answer. It's really that simple, so obviously your mind frame to the issue is totally different than the one we (the open minded) are in.

You don't have to sound like a kid saying things like: 'they're going to say this or that...you watch 'em!'. I can't believe how people take things so seriously...why can't we simply have some intelligence in our tones for a change. This is especially for people like scot.
reply by
libre
1/8/2002 (23:18)
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barb, I'm in agreement with you about the suicide bomber issue. people always say 'what would we do if someone came and pushed us off our land?' i would hope that we, as a civilized society, wouldn't blow ourselves up and take as many people as we can down and expect to meet 70 virgins after. Concerning the Islamic fundamentalists treatment of women: this is only a thought but I tend to think that they oppress women as a way to get back at the U.S. and the West. The major thing they are fighting against is modernity and modern U.S. and western ideas and here they see American women dressing in jeans, going to school, and holding high-position jobs. They have seen American culture infiltrate their own livelihoods (the McWorld thing) and they feel that renders them powerless. So to try to exert power they abuse and oppress their women. It's their way of saying, 'Haha, look at what we can do to our women.' And Anti-American sentiment felt in the region and on the 'Arab street' is directed toward American society and the West comes with the territory because Americans had a role in shaping it. Obviously, American culture is far-reaching and can be seen as cultural globalization. It's not so much directed towards Europe and to explain that one has to go all the way back to European immigrants coming to America centuries ago. When those immigrants came here, they based their new country on freedom, democracy, and (a big one) separation of church and state, which they couldn't find for the most part in Europe, to become Americans, and all of those are which many in the Muslim world are in disagreement on. And now look at Europe...it's quite similar in many ways with America.
reply by
The Negotiator
1/8/2002 (24:33)
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Barb is ignorant enough to buy this, but please don’t expect the rest of us to.

“Islamic fundamentalists treatment of women: this is only a thought but I tend to think that they oppress women as a way to get back at the U.S.” you have to be kidding!

The major thing they are fighting against is modernity and modern U.S. and western ideas and here they see American women dressing in jeans, going to school, and holding high-position jobs. Please, foster and cultivate your own opinion not some one else’s, don’t repeat to us what we have heard from our oil executive Bush.

They have seen American culture infiltrate their own livelihoods (the McWorld thing) and they feel that renders them powerless. So to try to exert power they abuse and oppress their women. It's their way of saying, 'Haha, look at what we can do to our women.'
Where did you come up with this stuff?
reply by
Barb
1/9/2002 (15:18)
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I think your comments about how 'ignorant' and 'simple minded' I am are funny! It's hilarious to watch you narrow-minded, close-minded self-professed 'intellectuals' hypocrits try to rationalize 'suicide murderers!' It is YOU who are the close minded.
reply by
Barb
1/9/2002 (15:20)
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Another great posting by Libre! You seem to be one of the more open-minded intelligent ones on MER. The others just want to try to instill fear into American society.
reply by
libre
1/9/2002 (21:56)
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I'm repeating what oil executive Bush is saying? Ha ha? Is THAT supposed to be funny? What some people are thinking is that I believed Bush when he stood up in front of everyone and said the only reason those people attacked America was simply because we are Americans and they hate everything we stand for and everything else he said. Yes, that is the case for some Islamic fundamentalists,just like it is for other people in other countries and even in America. But what Bush needs to know is that for many in the Middle East, it's not so much that they hate our values, they don't like the way they see America trying to globalize the world with it through what they call imperialism, arrogance, and hypocrisy.
And yes I do believe that for some Islamic fundamentalists (not everyone, sorry for making it appear like that)they do treat their women like that to fight against American and Western ideals. I don't believe those same fundamentalists when they explain their treatment of women:they can't work because it will make them unpure or they have to cover themselves so they won't get raped. Now where do they come up with that?
reply by
Barb
1/9/2002 (22:33)
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If you want to call it 'racism' go ahead. It's just that the modern world cannot comprehend how a society could be so backward, say, like 2,000 years. And how such an apparently large portion of this society can oppress their women so horribly. It causes the rest of the world pure and total disgust and makes it very difficult to take that part of the world seriously. Now, if the women were satisfied with this type of regime, then we'd say, 'Well, they're happy, leave them alone.' Unfortunately and thankfully, this isn't the case. So, if there's EVER a time to 'impose western society,' gee, this is it!
reply by
mesamrt
1/9/2002 (23:49)
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Barb,
Arab/Moslem woman are not as oppressed as your Blind and Ignorant government along with your bias Media want you to believe.

90% of the time Arab woman are more honored and respected than any other women in the world.

As in previous generations of the world, Arab/ Moslem women were homemakers but as things changed, Arab Moslem /Woman too have change, Arab/Moslem woman are well educated and hold high positions in various industries throughout the world.

You obviously don't go out much, try turning off the TV, stepping outside your world and learning about the people around you and don't limit yourself to just Christian Arab men! No offense to my Arab Christian Brothers- God Bless them.




reply by
happy homemaker
1/10/2002 (8:17)
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So, if there's EVER a time to 'impose western society,' gee, this is it!.

Yes let's start by giving them 1950s America. 'Stay in the home honey, only men should be going to work. Don't worry your pretty little head about education we gotta get this country back on the move after that war, so get outta my factory and get with the home-making'.

We could blast it through the media day and night with all the right role models. After all western democracy is all about making those stupid citizens think what you want them to think.

Get them thinking/worrying about products and purchases and not policy so we can exploit who we like. that way we can give them all the cheap products they want.

Only problem is the rest of the world might catch on and want in and then who will be left to exploit. We can't all make a profit, we can't all get high wages and buy cheap goods via slave labour elsewhere in the world.

Perhaps if we start a little war somewhere or supply weapons to opposing sides in a conflict they wont be able to catch on. But if they do and decide to bomb us, though we only have ourselves to blame, we can always 'avenge' ourselves and place a new 'stable' govt in with some support from us....

So western society for everyone. Last one in is a suicide bomber.
reply by
Barb
1/10/2002 (15:34)
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Why would you want to start then off with 1950's. That was 50 years ago, that is a very very LONG time in Western years.
reply by
happy homemaker
1/10/2002 (19:30)
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what!? Instantly supply them with a group of slave states to support their population, some how have a population now more interested in products and personal wealth than community, magically create a huge gross national product, suddenly have a standing army deployed about the world to 'protect' their interests....

No i think at least 50 years is needed for that. 50yrs fed first with blind propaganda about rebuilding after the war (1950s), then some taste of hope and change as they get restless (1960s), then sour them to the possibility by corporatising and commericalising everything (1970s), when they fall under the spell and join the rat race like a good little yuppie try out a few 'defence of freedom' operations on 'suspect' countries (1980s), finally shrink it down to corporate media, selling the corporation's products, to corporate people listening to the corporation bands. Show Orwell it works better if everyone is comfortable as well as misdirected (1990s). Then they'll be ready for anything, back where they started with no aspirations to freedom, Just replace Communist country with Terrorist country. and if not maybe dust of the Operation Northwoods folder and give it a go.

'gotta protect our Freedom(TM) no matter the cost to freedom'.
reply by
Barb
1/11/2002 (18:18)
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TO 'Happy Homemaker:' Try looking at it like this: If you have a job somewhere and you don't like the management, the owners, or even your vo-workers, you are doing everyone a disservice by staying and complaining. Move on. Go work somewhere where you agree with how they do things. There are many other nations I'm sure you'd be happy to live in. But it's EASIER, I realize, to stay, be negative, and bitch. As if that EVER solved anything. And 50 YEARS in Western Society is a very long long time.
reply by
DJFLux
1/13/2002 (2:03)
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I have yet to see people in the west respecting women for who they are, and not for what they are. This is the case of general media.

Freedom to be nude, not freedom to protect the woman's sanctity is the apparent trend in western culture...always has been with the invention of moving pictures and then came the fake image of 'plastic' women moving up in the world, yet still need to be physically there in order for them to achieve status. Kinda like that damsel from the Great Gatsby book...she puts the best quote by saying (and I'm paraphrasing): 'All a girl can be in this world is a doll'...maybe somebody can help further continue on the quote...the character was Daisy. Oh well at least it before the 50's.
reply by
scot
1/13/2002 (21:10)
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Dam, i think I've been insulted by people who agree with murder, aka suicide bombers
Keep blowing up those innocent people guys. It really helps your image and proves my point that you are animals.
reply by
confused
1/13/2002 (23:45)
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Is that why the US army carpet bombed Afghanistan?
reply by
MESMART
1/14/2002 (1:21)
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SCOT,
WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKIGN ABOUT?

NO ONE AGREES WITH SUICIDE BOMBING. WE ARE SIMPLY STATING THAT OPPRESSION, KILLINGS, THEFT OF HOME AND LAND, RAPE OF DIGNITY, AND LACK OF OPERTUNITY DUE TO THE ISRAELI OCCUPATION CONTRIBUTES TO SUICIDE BOMBING.

RIGHT OR WRONG, WHAT WE ARE DOING HERE IS POINTING OUT THE CAUSE.

GOT IT?



reply by
Barb
1/14/2002 (23:15)
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Wow, this posting sure has a lot of responses! I think this one may be a record!
reply by
Barb
1/14/2002 (23:16)
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DFlux: What are you talking about? Can you be more clear with what you mean?
reply by
Happy Homemaker
1/14/2002 (24:29)
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Barb, I already live in a democratic and free country (more so than yours, we've never felt the need to shoot our leaders, certainly not four times. no civil war either). The only thing that has ever threatened that democracy was your country. You place secret bases in my country under conditions laid out in an Executive Agreement then break that agreement and use a CIA puppet to oust a democratically elected leader when he decides to reveal the illegal activities in those bases. You shove your products(culture?) down our throats insisting on 'Free Trade' the world over using international bodies while practicing socialist 'protectionism' by govt subsidising yourselves.

So take leaf out of your own book, if you don't like what the world is saying or doing take ALL your troops and go home (I live in a free country so until they go I can complain all I like with no fear of the FBI). Perhaps you can wave the magic wand that was going to turn wartorn Palestine into coporate run USA overnight to do this instead. Try paying for your oil and running an economy based on something other than war. But I bet 'the people' couldn't get this out of their govt. these days even if they wanted to.

So you can keep hiding behind your flag like a good little idol worshipper.
As Mr. Dictionary, Samuel Johnson himself says 'Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel'.

Finally if you think the Middle East is so backwards why take your religion from there.
reply by
DJFLux
1/15/2002 (2:05)
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Sorry for the many mixed messages I sent with the last response... I was actually tired when posting that last response. Anyways I was generalising the current trend with women in the media, and I remember the Scott Fitzgerald book : The Great Gatsby in the process, and how Daisy felt about the state of women during her days. There was a quote which I'll have to run and get in order to make my point clear.

reply by
scot
1/15/2002 (10:59)
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yep, you are probable from the upperclass. do you own servents allso. you are happy but your slaves are not.
reply by
scot
1/15/2002 (11:01)
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barb, i think deflux is saying he likes nude american woman pictures.
reply by
Barb
1/15/2002 (14:25)
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Why can't you tell us what country you live in 'Happy Homemaker?'
reply by
Happy Homemaker
1/15/2002 (18:19)
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Govt. doing the same thing to so many countries you can't tell? thanks for the laughs
reply by
libre
1/16/2002 (24:57)
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DJFlux, I believe the quote you were refering to from 'The Great Gatsby' is this: (Daisy finds out that her baby is a girl) 'She told me it was a girl, and so I turned my head away and wept. 'All right,' I said, 'I'm glad it's a girl. And I hope she'll be a fool- that's the best thing a girl can be in this world, a beautiful little fool.''


'So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.'
reply by
Isam Kamel
1/23/2002 (7:18)
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Your message libre from 1/7/2002 (24:25)
Your are absolutely mistaken and your impression is black on progress of humanity.
It is easy to summerize: Americans are hard-working people These people have no idea what their successive governments since WWII have been exercising and inflicting in the name of the american public in the third world. Look at south america, Vietnam, Nord Korea and specially IRAQ and PALESTINE. I guess the Conflict very probably will come to an end only if the americans stop their support in intelligence, money, logistical etc. to ethnic nazi-style cleansing in Palestine done by their long arm of zionistic israeli-military, Oppressing, Terrorizing Killing of so about two million iraqi Children in the last 12 years. This is barbaric and must be protested against as middle-aged and much much worse when comparing the numbers killed then and in our time.

In my own opinion not Islam but Democracies are the real enemy of the american Governments. In case you want to verify this information for yourself you may refer to internal documents of CIA.
The following is an article that might be of interest!
http://www.amin.org/eng/azmi_bishara/2002/jan17.html
reply by
Isam Kamel
1/23/2002 (7:33)
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Reply to Barb1/8/2002 (2:31)

When reading the ideas of this guy i cann't ride myself of the impression that he is zionist in his soul and promoting an all around hatered at any price. How can he be that sure? if the USA would change their policies toward a human and value oriented approach retreat from supporting the killings and ethnic cleansing of Palestine by the zionistic israeli military using nazi-style adminstration toward an ethnic cleansing and militarily by using american US-F 16 and Apache etc...
They will do only good for the american people and their image in the world.
If the USA insist on implementing only one third of the UN-Resolutions regarding Palestine (what they do not) and if they persist on cleaning the middle east of the CHEMICAL/BIOLOGICAL/NUCLEAR waste installed by Israel since the last fifties and sixties then I'm sure we all will winn except the racistic zionistic Ideology which is the biggest barrier to reconcilation between the jews and palestinians!
reply by
Barb
1/24/2002 (2:08)
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It is true that the American people have been duped by the major networks; the primary source of info for the general public. The 'average' American has no idea what's been going on in Israel/Palestine. The U.S. must stop it's blind support of Israel and it is the powerful Jewish lobbies driving this machine. The suicide bombers got their point across. Now it's up to the people to DEMAND A CHANGE IN D.C. FOREIGN POLICY.
PEACE
reply by
Barb
1/24/2002 (2:12)
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That being said, however, I do NOT in any way support suicide murderers and I still believe they are hurting their own cause. I believe what they did 9/11 will only further to make Americans and Christians detest middle east Muslims and support the Israelis even MORE.
reply by
Isam Kamel
1/24/2002 (8:58)
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Imagin you were a palestinian living in a community of more than 120000 people in the city of Hebron and there are (the israeli official no.) at maximum 400 fanatic blood thirsty zionist jews mostly from new york (Broklyn) in a speciall mission to humiliate all of your community members undiscriminately with the voll might and support of the israeli military which has almost only american weapons used against relatively unarmed palestinians. For these max. 400 'God-humans' (as they call themselves) the israeli army sets curfew on about 300 days a year on 120000 people who the israeli establishment again and again consider as flies/snakes (considered as subhumans according to the nazi-ideology in the thirties) and prevent them from the basic means of dignity and humanity in order to enable max. 400 settlers to move arround. You have no imagination how it feels to be the slave for an enemy who has no basic human values for others until you experience this yourself.
The israeli colonial army has been exercising since many decades a policy of destruction on the palestinian society, firstly by administrative restrictions of not allowing any progress of development through prohibiting import of modern machines for production for industy or severely making it impossible to export prohibiting students abroad to get back to Palestine if they exceed some period of time as they guard all boarders. They restrict the enhancements of Universities and many civil facilities. Recently those war criminals have been destroying the Palestine department for statistics, the radio Station (Voice of Palestine) and all almost all infrastructures which have been recently built and developed through palestinian laberers as well as by outside help. OPPRESSION IS WORSE THAN KILLING. YES IT IS. THINK ABOUT IT.
The israeli racist gevernment and its criminal members Sharon/Peres/BenElyser etc. cann't rest without experiencing all terror measures from smart to very barbaric and obvious methods of ethnic cleansing.
I'M FED UP WITH THE PUBLICISED LOGIC 'nothing can justify...' THAT HAS BEEN INVENTED IN ZIONISTIC THINK THANKS IN THE US to JUSTIFY KILLINGS AND TERRORIZING WITH US F-16/Apache-Helicopters/etc. AGAINST AN UNARMED POPULATION WHOSE FAULT IT IS TO WANTING TO LIVE IN DIGNITY AND GET RID OF UNBEARABLE israeli OCCUPATION.
reply by
Isam Kamel
1/24/2002 (9:15)
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Reply to 1/24/2002 (2:12)
I don't believe educated people any where in the world support blindly without investigating and satisfiying themselves which values they stand for. The problem in democracy is the power of media through mind manipulation (mental terrorism that is beeing unfortunately practicised in the US through lies incitements against others, baseless allegation and misuse of logic). Since foreign issues are not the main things in one's life it becomes not very difficult for the media to push on manipulating the public (which indeed influences the policy) as the following:
in TV: get contact with agencies who have lists of pseudo scientists and analysts then you invite in endless discussions those mind masters and manipulators and in order to make it seem to be balanced you invite some 5% of real experts who will hardly be able to influence the publice opinion against the 95% of manipulators. This is the way how it works in the world of media.

Honest journalists have a very small chance of doing a creer. Politicians share the same fate if they don't do what they have to do. They have no real vision for peace.
It is like this: Truth is there and it is our obligation to seek after it.
P.S.: You may read for Prof. NoamChomsy on the Power of Media.