America, why do you support Israel?
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AuthorTopic: America, why do you support Israel?
topic by
mesmart
3/10/2002 (22:49)
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Barb,

Good question, lets see what your counrty-men and women have to say.
reply by
barb
3/10/2002 (23:43)
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I am afraid they're not reading this board though!
reply by
barb
3/10/2002 (24:15)
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Here's one reply from a message board:

) Because America is finally fed up with supporting and protecting the terrorist arafat organization as failed policy of the last 40 yrs.
2) Because its the right thing to do after getting one example here of palistinian tactics that Israel has had to deal with since 1948.
reply by
barb
3/10/2002 (24:53)
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Subject: Re: US FINALLY SEES TRUE NATURE OF JEWS
Date: 3/10/02 4:48 PM Mountain Standard Time
From: USFirstNForemost
Message-id:


The blood of the United States of America is composed of millions of ethnically diverse citizens who immigrated to America from all corners of the world. The heart through which that blood flows, is the United States Constitution that guarantees liberty and justice for ALL. For over 200 years, the Constitution has provided the framework for our government - indeed, it is at the roots of our society. Today, in a time
when Zionists want Americans to weaken us to doubt our faith in our government, it IS a relief to again, read the Constitution that has successfully sustained our nation for so long.

The United States has a different and unique relationship with every country on every continent in this world. The time has arrived to remind Zionists that if their devotion is to Israel alone, then, they need to remember that it is impossible to keep attempting to rip the heart from this country by way of its devoted citizens, the blood.

Israel has to decide whether to get along with the rest of the countries in the world or die. No longer can Sharon live with the delusion that he can order President Bush to fight all of its wars when Sharon can get along with no one. Israel has alienated itself from the United Nations, the European Union, from Asia and the list of coutries grows everyday, particularly when the prime minister has publicly shunned leaders, Israeli government
officials, and continued to allow atrocities to be committed everyday.

Each day that passes, Israel loses its democracy as its government suffers increasing dissenion. This is just another time when the Constitution of the United States cannot be ignored for the benefit of personal greed of Ariel Sharon to illegally invade and occupy land.








reply by
barb
3/11/2002 (1:06)
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7 million Poles of German descent were kicked out of Poland after World War II. Why? To preserve the peace. Every war has been followed by involuntary resettlements of troublemakers. It's thus perfectly reasonable for the Israelis to kick every single Palestinian Arab across the river to Jordan.

Charlie Gregor
New York City
reply by
barb
3/11/2002 (1:17)
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From MIKE S DE: Israel which is 20% Arab does share the land but the Arabs/Muslims whose land is Judenrein when they brutally kicked all the Jews out shares land with no one. Also Israel which has only 20% of the British Mandate shares the land with Jordan/Palestine which has 80% of the land and which of course is Judenrein.
reply by
brbadams1@aol.com
3/11/2002 (1:58)
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3/10/02 11:04 PM Mountain Standard Time
From: Stampex1

The Israelis and the Palestinians are being used by forces more powerful than themselves, and they are being manipulated into a war that will be disastrous for both sides.

Israel is a buffer and scapegoat for U.S. influence in the Mid-East. The U.S. benefits from Israeli intelligence operations in the Mid-East, and without Israel, the U.S. would be more vociferously blamed by Arab leaders, in order to re-direct the rage of their impoverished, oppressed subjects. If there were no Israel, and the U.S. became the scapegoat, the governments of Saudi Arabia, the Gulf States, Egypt, Jordan, and possibly Turkey and
some of the 'moderate' Arab nations in North Africa, which we support, would go up in flames, and the U.S. would wind up paying European or Japanese prices for oil. And that would be a best case scenario- assuming that the whole area didn't erupt in prolonged, bloody warfare.

The Palestinians are dominated by hard-line rejectionists who will never make peace with Israel as long as the state exists. To them, it does not matter whether Israel withdraws from the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, or whether a future Palestinian state incorporates part of Jerusalem. These rejectionists are given substantial material and political support by Islamic Fundamentalists and governments in the Arab world which are promoting
hatred of Jews and hatred of Israel as a long-standing policy- as a means of deflecting the rage of their subjects by using Israel and the Jews as scapegoats. Were Israel and the Palestinians to make a real and lasting peace, it would be disastrous for the Fundamentalists, because it would lead to liberalization of the Arab world as a whole, and it would be disastrous for the Arab dictatorships, because they cannot afford to demonize the U.S. to the
same degree that they demonize Israel. Consequently, they must necessarily arm the rejectionists among the Palestinians, and suppress those among them who would make peace. And as a result of this empowerment of the rejectionists by outside elites in the Arab world, the rejectionists have succeeded in sabotaging, through terrorism and by fomenting the Intifada, all efforts by Israelis and Palestinians to make peace, which has, of course , increased
the paranoia of most Israelis and most Jews, and has played into the hands of the Israeli Right.

The great tragedy of this conflict is that it is such a brutal, horrible waste. If the Israelis and the Palestinians were to make peace, and were to become good neighbors, they could be an immensely creative force in the Mid-East, and possibly the developing world as a whole. Both are intellectually gifted peoples, with much to offer the rest of the world. The Palestinians are among the best educated and most 'modern' Arabs, and could help to
bridge the gap between the West and Arab world.

But now, it seems, there is a war to fight. The whole situation nauseates me.




reply by
barb
3/11/2002 (2:14)
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It was not clear who posted this due to the format:
Below is a very short list of the contributions to world terror committed by Muslims and/or in the name of Islam in the last 6 decades:
- conspiracy with Nazi Germany against the U.S. and the Allies in WW2
- American Hostage crisis in Iran -1979- 444 days of detension
- bombing of U.S. embassies in Beirut, Kenya, Tanzania, killing hundreds.
- killing of American diplomats in cold blood
- terror attacks against European airports (Rome & Vienna)- dozens killed
- terror hijacking of civilian airplanes - most famous is Air France - Entebbe
- terror hijacking of cruise ships-most famous-Achille Lauro- in which an elderly man in a wheelchair was thrown overboard by Muslim terrorists.
- Munich Olympics 1973 - entire Israeli Sports team brutally massacred.
- Lockerbie plane - Pan Am civilian airline downed by Muslim terrorists killing hundreds on board, mostly American.
- bombing of USS Cole in Yemen by Muslim terrorists
- bombing World Trade Center in NYC by Muslim terrorists
- conspiracy to bomb NYC bridges and tunnels and other NY landmarks and infrastructure.
- desecration and destruction of ancient Buddhist, Hindu, and Jewish Holy sites by Muslim governments who sponsor global terrorism
- attacks on Israel - all six wars were instigated by Arabs and won by Israel
- barbaric acts committed on Israeli soldiers - ripping out of their heart and intestines with bare hands and paraded in the streets of Rammallah.
- barbaric acts committed on American and Israeli children: savage stoning beyond recognition of two 12-year old boys who were hiking, targeting babies in strollers by Arab snipers.
- dumping poisenous sewage from West Bank and Gaza into Israel
- burning American and Israeli flags
- incitement of their populations by Muslim clerics to kill Americans, British, and Jews the world over.
- arrest of hundreds of Christians in Syria
- attacks on U.S. soldiers in Somalia - 1993
- bombing U.S. personnel in Saudi Arabia - 1995, 1996
- bombing U.S. soldiers in Yemen - 1992
- hundreds of suicide bombings in Israel - killing and maiming civilians
- thousands of ATTEMPTED suicide bombings in Israel
- synagogue bombing in Istanbul
- hijacking of Pan Am #73 in Karachi
- Kidnapping and beheading of Westerners in Phillipines & Malaysia
- Armed attacks on Coptic Christians in Egypt
- Arrest, detention, and execution threats against Christians in Afghanistan
- Execution of Hindus in Afghanistan, Hindus forced to wear I.D. tag
- Murder of 58 Western tourists in Luxor, Egypt, 1997
- Kidnapping and murder of journalists and foreign nationals - Algeria 1992
- Planned attack against U.S. Embassy in Albania - thwarted.
- Bombing of Orly Airport in Paris - 8 killed, 55 seriously wounded
- Bombing of Israeli Embassy in Argentina - 1992
- Bombing of Jewish Cultural Center - Buenos Aires- 1994- hundreds killed
- Public floggings, mutilations, torture, beheadings, executions of inhabitants in Muslim countries.
- denial of freedom of dress, speech, press, and other basic human rights to inhabitants of Mulsim countries.
- Mass murders of Afghans and Hindus by Islamic Taliban
- Armed attacks on Sudanese Christians
- Sudanese slavery
- Execution of civilians without proper representation (Muslim and non-Muslim)
- Exclusion of women from all parts of society - mutilation, torture, honor killings. Women forced to beg in streets, not allowed to speak, wear make-up, go to beauty parlor, speak, show public affection to spouses for penalty of Death.
- child soldiers in Sudan, PLO, Muslim African countries.
- establishment of Islamic states where non Muslims are unwelcome and massacred, basic freedoms denied to the inhabitants, women are excluded from society, executions, torture, beheadings, and genocide are a daily ritual - Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Sudan among others.


There is no other group of people in
the last 50 years who have inflicted such mass terror and barbarity with such frequency on a world wide basis as the Arab/Muslim world. None.

kemaste






reply by
barb
3/11/2002 (3:07)
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If Palestinians don't like Israel - Move!
Date: 3/11/02 12:30 AM Mountain Standard Time
From: Sandlewood54

If Palestinians don't like having Israel for a neighbor, then they should leave. Last week nearly 700 Indians died in a span of 5 days because of Islamic jihaders. On Sept 11, around 2000 people from all over the world were killed by them. Why should the Chinese, the Africans, the South Americans, the Europeans and anyone else in the world have to die for some Palestinian cause? For over 30 years these people have been
terrorizing EVERYONE EVERYWHERE.

Arabs have more land the the United States of America. Their population is 4 times as large. The people in those lands are Muslim, they speak Arabic, they follow Islamic law and they like the Palestinians. Why do they even need a Palestinian state? The entire Middle East is Muslim.

Arab nations have a responsibility to other peoples in the world. They need to stop invading other nations and using terrorism to get what they want. They are as big as the United States in territory. They have 1.5 billion people (America has 280 million). And there is no excuse for them to attempt to destroy little countries like Israel and Kuwait. Or take away lands from India and Afghanistan. And there is absolutely no excuse for them to
disrupt world air travel and transportation.

This Palestinian problem is about the Arabs trying to take what isn't theirs. Israel does not belong to the Arab world and the Arab world needs to stop trying to take it away so they can have it. They talk about the 600,000 Palestinians who left Israel but they never talk about the 600,000 Jews who had to leave their homelands in Saudia Arabia, Iran and Iraq years ago. Or the Ethiopians and other peoples that were forced to leave Arab lands either.
Israelis have a right to live in the Middle East. It is their home too. And it has been the home of non-Arab peoples for thousands of years. Romans and Persians and Greeks. People who do not want to live under Islamic law and shouldn't have to. It's time the world told the Arabs to back off. No wonder China had to build the Great Wall. Maybe Israel should do the same thing. Since Arabs have no respect for anyone else in the world.

Arab countries have received unimaginable amounts of money from countries all over the world selling OIL. Europe, America, the Soviet Union, China and countries all over the planet give them a constant supply of money and credit and perks. They send their families to the United States to get educated and build palaces all over Europe. They invest billions of dollars in U.S. corporations yet they refuse to share it with the people who live
in the occupied territories except to hire the Palestinians to fight against Israel, be suicide bombers, kidnappers and hijackers. They have used the Palestinian people as the Arab Army against Israel for 30 years now and it's time to stop.

The situation in the occupied territories is their fault, no matter how you look at it. They are the ones who declared war on Israel 3 times. Since then the Arabs have murdered people all over the world through world terrorism. For 30 years we have seen their murderous subhuman behavior.

Has anyone ever seen China do that? They have people who live with poverty too. They have people who suffer too. They have been invaded by foreigner after foreigner. But they do not send terrorists all over the world to blow up airliners, hijack ships, destroy cities, attack government leaders. Neither do they disrupt the world because of their problems.

It's time for someone to stop the Palestinians and the United States should not have to send Anthony Zinni over to do it. The Arabs started this mess. They should be doing something about it.

Asking Israel to hand over Jerusalem is unacceptable. The Arabs need to start writing some checks to the Palestinian people so they can live decent lives. They need to tell them to stop murdering people. Even throwing rocks. It's unacceptable behavior for people to throw rocks at others. How are people supposed to know it's not a grenade? And they need to acknowledge what they have done to the Palestinian people who they claim to care about.
Anything less is pure BS.






reply by
John Calvin
3/11/2002 (14:12)
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This is an interesting tactic Barb. Since you can't find anyone in THIS forum to agree with your twisted views, you figure it might be helpful to reprint messages sent to other forums, organize a kind of virtual fan club for yourself. I suppose this allows you to imagine that your participation here is actually something more than completely irrelevant and annoying.

Anybody that finds Barbs arguments and postings persuasive raise your hand!
reply by
Raquel
3/11/2002 (16:19)
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Hey Barb, can you please stop doing this? If I want to read stupid first grade opinions I go to the CNN or MNSBC chats. I connect to this chat to learn stuff, not to scroll down my arrow trying to find decent opinions. Please, make it easier for those of us who don't have enough time to go though bs
Thanks
reply by
John Calvin
3/11/2002 (17:14)
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Have a little courtesy. I'm not a Mason or a Roman Catholic: do I go down to the Hall or Cathedral a rail against Masons and Catholics all day? Do I crash every local Republican caucus and tell then just what I think of George Bush. Do I post unrelentingly hostile messages in forums where nobody is in the slightest agreement with my views. Please, go conduct your infinite justice crusade where you can find a welcome or have a chance of influencing the arguments!

O>K. OK. have a few more postings to point out how badly we misinterprete what you say, blast away at my bias and prejudice, give us some more hell for a few days, while you find a place where truly decent people- not crypto-terrorists like us-will welcome and love you.
If you are really, really pissed go tell the FBI that in regard to the victims of 9/11 I said: good riddance!
reply by
liz beech
3/11/2002 (18:00)
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O>K. OK. have a few more postings to point out how badly we misinterprete what you say, blast away at my bias and prejudice, give us some more hell for a few days, while you find a place where truly decent people- not crypto-terrorists like us-will welcome and love you.
If you are really, really pissed go tell the FBI that in regard to the victims of 9/11 I said: good riddance!

John Calvin


What on earth good does the ceaseless reviling of Barb and her views create other than the very emnity which this board seemed, to me, to be dedicated to overturn.

So Barb hasn't 'got it'? So what? Most of what I read on this board are 'copies' and 'pastes' from elsewhere. Do you imagine I haven't read ....Robert Fisk, The Obeserver, The Guardian, BBC News 24, the Jewish Times, The Catholic Times, the Muslim Times - give me a break, since when did any of this 'knowledge' change anything? I'm serious.

Or is Barb expendable in your grand scheme of things?
reply by
barb
3/11/2002 (21:11)
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John, sue me then. You are such a hypocrit. Mesmert wanted to see what 'my' fellowmen have to say. So far, no one has posted anything because 'average' Americans won't go to this site or when they read it, then leave calling YOU ignorant because of YOUR views. Can't you 'handle' divergent opinions? I know you see ONE way to everything -- YOUR way. Open your mind a bit. I don't agree with all the postings here! Last night I was being blasted as a 'Nazi' and an 'anti-Semite' and a host of other words because I DARED TO QUESTION U.S. BLIND SUPPORT FOR ISRAEL. I was getting hate mail all evening telling me to go to Hell, 'Read my 'Fueherer' stuff', etc. At least I try to look at different viewpoints and don't automatically dismiss all of them as ignorant because I don't agree. Don't get so uptight.
reply by
barb
3/11/2002 (21:21)
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Just one more thing, Calvin. 'Adios???' to the innocent victims of 9/11 who were just going to work??? And you DARE to rail against others who terrorize? YOU think like a terrorist. It's too bad you're taking up space in this country with your very sick twisted views. YOUR views are twisted-- not mine. I just LOVE pointing out hypocrisy from frauds with an agenda -- maybe that's why this forum is like a magnet to me -- because of posters like you.
reply by
Kathy Johnston
3/11/2002 (21:36)
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Now that all the rhetoric and bashing has subsides I'll throw my 2 cents in. I take it that you are not an American citizen.

The question I think you're trying to understand is how the American public can choose to resign their loyalties with Israel over most Arab states? In simple terms they see what Americans value most to themselves, liberty and freedom. The Americans support Israel not because they are Jewish but because they are democratic. And I think it's mostly agreed that Arabs don't hate America because it supports Israel but rather they hate Israel because it looks like America. Israel society is modern, multi-cultural, and scientific. And I think it's also the perceived in the Arab culture that anti-semitism and anti-Americanism go hand-in-hand.

What is your perception of the question you ask?
reply by
barb
3/11/2002 (22:29)
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Who are you talking to Kathy? I'm curious why would you think I'm 'not' an American citizen? Because I don't just parrot when the biased press tells me to think? Because I disagree with supporting Israel? I have news for you, Kathy. There are MANY people that agree with stopping support of Israel. Of course if all you read is Time, you wouldn't know that. Israel's so-called 'democracy' (very ethnocentric) is of no benefit to the U.S. It is a liability because of their aggressiveness. Why do people like you think every American citizen MUST support Israel?? Like it's 'unAmerican' not to! What a laugh. This is NOT Nazi Germany. This country was founded on dissention. Just my 2 cents. Now, if you're talking about John not being an American, ha-ha, LOL.
reply by
D
3/12/2002 (3:24)
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Liz, there is nothing wrong with posting articles on this board as they form the basis (supposedly) for debate and argument. Not everyone reads all interesting articles from all places so this board is also a source of information. The only problem with this board is that there is not enough debate and too much emphasis on 'tit for tat' jibes.
reply by
mesmart
3/12/2002 (6:03)
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Kathy,

1- I am an American Citizen.

2- 'Americans value most to themselves, liberty and freedom. The Americans support Israel not because they are Jewish but because they are democratic.'

A-Do you honestly belive what you've stated above?

B-Who on the face of this earth does not seek and welcome freedom and democracy?

C:What is going on in Palestine is a fight for Freedom, something most Americans have fialed to recognize!!

4-'Arabs don't hate America because it supports Israel but rather they hate Israel because it looks like America'

Be for real, I was exposed to and lived throught oppression and turture from Israel, I know why I hate Israel and why I disagree with American policy in the middle east. Where do you come off telling me and the world how the Arab/Moslem world feels and belives?

This has nothing to do with hatred and or envy for your Mcworld!

sorry for the mispell,got to run...

reply by
barb
3/12/2002 (13:06)
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Subject: Bibical Prophecy & MidEast Today
Date: 3/12/02 10:53 AM Mountain Standard Time
From: Karl N Stein MD
Message-id:


One of the miracles of the 20th century was the reestablishment of the Jewish State in the Holy Land after 2000 years of exile and the loss of most of the Jews of the world. This was a time of hope, including the effort to bring prosperity to the few Arabs living there. Another miracle was the defeat of three Arab armies and the winning of Jerusalem and the winning of the land west of the Jordan, which was the original
Jewish land, but which was against the wishes of the Israeli government at that time. However, the Israel government, the more 'liberal' Labor party let the Moslems control the most holy place to the Jews, the Temple Mount, in Jerusalem, and did not expel the attackers from the ancient lands of Judea and Samaria, now called the West Bank of the Jordan. This kindness was in the hopes of Peace with the Arabs. This step was contrary to the Bible.
The reward of this kindness is the state of killing of today.
Instead of promoting peace, the Muslim Arabs have promoted 50 years of hate and the never-ending attempt to destroy this small country of Israel. One reason is that the existence of this small Western culture country in a 'Sea of Islam' is a threat to the existence of Islam. This is particularly true with the Arab view of women. If the Arab leaders would only accept the benefit of an advanced Western people like the Israelis, who were the
remnants left after the six million Jews killed in the Holocaust during World War II there would be generalized prosperity and democracy for the Arab peoples. Unfortunately, the leaders selected to maintain their power and keep the Arab people in a 9th century existence.
Tradition has it that the Romans were the descents of Assuf, and also the Germans. Remember. Germany was once called 'The Holy Roman Empire' in the Middle Ages. Assuf was the other son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, who is revered by most religions of the world: Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, and Mohammedism (in approximate chronological order) Assuf was the representation of brutality and the lack of compassion and humanity. The
Amalekites were one of the desendents of Assuf and attacked the newly liberated Jews on their journey to Mount Sinai to receive the Ten Commandments and the Books of Moses. They were defeated by the direct order of God and with the help of God. Assuf married an Israelite. The Moslems trace their origin to the Israelites. Undoubtable, some of Assuf's traits infuse sections of the Moslem world
and undoubtably account for the Moslem killers of today, attacking the decent people.
The United States is the bastion of Western Civilization today, the strongest country, protecting these values throughout the world. This is our heritage and responsibility.
The advantages the American people and the Western World has today is a result of these values of our civilization, including freedom and respect for human worth and life.
The murder of three thousand innocent Americans by Moslem fundamentalists was not because of Israel, but because we exist, like Israel. These murderers, like those suicide killers attacking Israeli civilians, are the inheritance of Assuf. Prophecy demands the defeat of these people, which is what we Americans and all decent people are doing now.
We cannot be complacent or we will reap the results of failure, and the destruction will not stop. Our civilization depend on the destruction of these terrorists and their sponsors.
(Charles Stone)






reply by
barb
3/12/2002 (19:23)
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Your comments John, on this MD's posting?
reply by
CHASE
3/12/2002 (24:17)
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Please sign the petition below (link) to end our alliance with Israel. Make sure you pass this on to others so we can get millions of signatures. Who knows, maybe it will do some good...It only
takes a minute of your time so its worth it.


http://www.petitiononline.com/kr50k/petition.html

For more info on this subject matter I suggest
a book available at ww.amazon.com under Hennecke Kardel or at the www.amazon.com (amazon.com) under Kardel Hennecke. Also look at any Search Engine for his and his historical work name. In this respect the (t_pioro@yahoo.com) or the New Century Press with toll free tel. (800) 5192465 may help you too.

Another book, supplementing the Kardel's one is The Bible: The Devil's Book, proving how the doctrine of the Torah brings our world to ruin. It was published in 2001 by Cymophane Publishing, Sweden, author Jos Rogiers.

reply by
WALTER
3/12/2002 (24:18)
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Please sign the petition below (link) to end our alliance with Israel. Make sure you pass this on to others so we can get millions of signatures. Who knows, maybe it will do some good...It only
takes a minute of your time so its worth it.


http://www.petitiononline.com/kr50k/petition.html

For more info on this subject matter I suggest
a book available at ww.amazon.com under Hennecke Kardel or at the www.amazon.com (amazon.com) under Kardel Hennecke. Also look at any Search Engine for his and his historical work name. In this respect the (t_pioro@yahoo.com) or the New Century Press with toll free tel. (800) 5192465 may help you too.

Another book, supplementing the Kardel's one is The Bible: The Devil's Book, proving how the doctrine of the Torah brings our world to ruin. It was published in 2001 by Cymophane Publishing, Sweden, author Jos Rogiers.

reply by
barb
3/13/2002 (19:58)
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another one...


What Americans don't understand is that it's not Israel against Palestinians but the Muslim domination of the world by murdering all those who do not accept Islam. Americans are only focused on the Israeli/Palestinian and Afghan conflict and don't see the whole picture which is Muslims against all non-Muslims. Sadly, most
Americans don't see who the real enemy is and they never will. This is not a War against Countries but a Religious War which we can't win. The enemy is scattered throughout the World. The President and all World Leaders (especially European Leaders) know this.
reply by
barb
3/15/2002 (20:22)
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another one Mesmart...

3/15/02 5:46 PM Mountain Standard Time
From: Kramden1019

WHY DOES THE U.S. SUPPORT ISRAEL

Why does the U.S. support Israel? It would certainly be easier not to. The Muslim world is constantly mystified as to why most Americans are sympathetic to Israel.

Some critics in the Middle East castigate our government and excuse 'the American people.' In the eyes of these critics, it just can't be possible that grassroots public opinion is reflected in our official policy. Other misinformed conspiracy theorists spin elaborate yarns involving the Mossad, CIA, Old Testament fundamentalists, international bankers, the Protocols hoax, Jewish control of Hollywood and the U.S. Congress, and so forth.

But the question remains: Why does an overwhelming majority of Americans -- between sixty and seventy percent of the electorate on a consistent basis -- support Israel’s right to exist? And why has this level of support maintained itself after the September 11 suicide attacks?

The answer can be found in values. Not in brainwashing, and not because of an innate affinity for a particular race or creed. The fact is, Israel is a democracy. Its enemies are not.

Much misinformation abounds on this subject. Of course we know that Libya, Syria, Iraq and Iran are brutal dictatorships. But even the less repressive Arab regimes such as Egypt, Morocco and Jordan are sorely lacking in true and free democracy. Their candidates for 'parliament' are either screened, pre-selected, or coerced to toe the party line. Any opposition candidate who dares to speak out is jailed or silenced. Print and broadcast media are
subject to restrictions, censorship or state control. 'Elected' leaders are almost never open to public audit, censure or serious criticism. There is a reason, after all, why in the last decade Americans have dealt with Labor and Likud governments in Israel, but no one other than Arafat on behalf of the Palestinians, the Hashemite monarchs in Jordan, Mubarak in Egypt, the Assads in Syria, etc. Only death -- not free and fair elections -- brings a
change of government in the Arab world.

The 'Arab street' responds that it is the responsibility of the U.S., which gives billions to Egypt, Palestine, Jordan, Afghanistan and other Muslim regimes, to use its influence to instill democracy. Yet we rarely have such power to engineer sweeping constitutional reform, despite our troops stationed in the Gulf and our shameful dependency on the Saudi oil barons. True freedom is brought not by external pressure from the U.S., but by the blood
and courage of native patriots, together with at least some modicum of cultural tolerance, widespread literacy, and free markets. Let an Arab George Washington, Thomas Jefferson or Tom Paine rise up against repression. Only then might we see a new birth of freedom in the Arab world.

Moreover, we also give billions to Israel. Yet we have little control over whether they wish to elect a Rabin or a Sharon.

Israel is also a secular state. The ultra-Orthodox do not run the government unless they command a majority of the voters, which is wholly unlikely. Americans have always harbored suspicion of anyone who nods violently while reading Scripture, whether in madrasses, the local church, or before the Wailing Wall. In Israel, however, Americans sense that free speech and liberality of custom and religion are more ubiquitous than, say, in Saudi Arabia,
Iran or Palestine. Thus, Americans surmise that the Jewish state is more akin to the nations of Western Europe than to those of Muslim fundamentalists.

Pluralism exists in Israel, but rarely so in the Arab world. Israel has a dovish peace party, a spirited debate between Left and Right, and strong opinions in favor and against those who have established settlements outside the 1967 borders. Judaism itself is fissured by a variety of splinter orthodoxies, yet we see no gunfights among them. Many Israeli Jews are openly agnostic and atheist, yet they enjoy influence in Israeli culture, politics and
academia. In the Arab and Muslim world, such parallels are rarely if ever seen. Heretical mullahs may be heretical in London, Paris and New York, but not in Teheran or among the Taliban. No Palestinian will dare appear on CNN to call for Arafat's resignation. His opposition rests among bombers, not debaters.

Israeli newspapers reflect a diversity of views, from rabid Zionism to almost suicidal pacifism. The Israeli parliament includes several legislators of Arab descent. Indeed, the Sharon government itself includes two Arab cabinet ministers. Plenty of left-wing Jewish intellectuals openly write and broadcast their views in opposition to the particular government of the day. Is that liberality ever true in Palestine? Can a Palestinian, Egyptian or
Syrian novelist freely write something favorable about Golda Meir or something hostile to Assad or Mubarak? Can a Muslim author craft a satire about Islam? Past experience suggests that such critics would be met with fatwas and assassination attempts at best. Sure, the Palestinian spokesmen can be vocal and unbridled on American television, but only when they are being critical of the U.S. and Israel. Their free-wheeling invective is rarely
directed at Arafat’s authority.

Israel’s free, pluralistic and democratic society extends to all its citizens – Jew and Gentile alike. In particular, over one million Israelis of Arab origin – Muslim, Christian and Druze – enjoy the benefits of Israeli citizenship. Israeli Arabs vote, serve in Parliament and other political offices, own real estate, operate businesses, publish literary works, teach in schools and universities, practice law, medicine and other professions,
and serve in the military and police forces. The Israeli Defense Force includes thousands of proud, loyal Arab citizens of Israel among its ranks. Recently, four Israeli servicemen of Arab origin -- an Army Major, a Sergeant and two enlisted men – were brutally murdered by their Palestinian 'brothers' in an unprovoked attack on the Israel/Gaza border. The four were mourned as heroes and buried with full military honors. One of the four soldiers
was a distant cousin of Omar Souaid, another Arab Israeli soldier of Muslim faith who was kidnapped and executed last year, along with two Jewish compatriots, by the Hezbollah butchers in Lebanon. Hezbollah has cynically refused to turn over the desecrated remains of Lieutenant Souaid to his grieving mother, thereby preventing this fine man of blessed memory from even receiving a proper Muslim burial. So much for 'Islamic solidarity.'

Americans also admire Israeli ingenuity – both technological and cultural. Israel’s achievements are not reflective of genes, but rather of the culture of freedom. Surely there are thousands of brilliant, educated and talented Palestinian Arabs. But in the conditions of the Middle East, they have little opportunity for free expression or to operate a business or profession without government bribes or tribal payoffs. The result is that even
American farmers in central California are constantly amazed by Israeli drip-irrigation devices, sophisticated water pumps and other ingenious agricultural appurtenances. We see no such inventiveness from the citizens of Algeria, Qatar and Abu Dhabi.

There is also an affinity between the Israeli and Western militaries that transcends mere official exchanges and commercial arms sales. We do not see goose-stepping soldiers in Haifa as we do in Baghdad. The troops in Tel Aviv do not wear hoods or strap plastic explosives to their clothing. Nor do Israeli presidents carry sidearms to the United Nations, strut around in plastic sunglasses, or pin to their chests the cheap, tawdry medals reminiscent
of Stalinist Russia. Young, rank-and-file Israeli men and women enjoy a familiarity among one another, and their officers are more akin to our own army than to Hamas, Islamic Jihad or the Iraqi Republican Guard.

The Israelis also far better reflect the abject lethality of the Western way of war. Here perhaps lies the greatest misunderstanding of military history on the part of the Arab world. The 'Arab street' foolishly believes that sheer numbers and real estate – two hundred million Arabs, a billion Muslims, a century of oil reserves and millions of square miles of seemingly impenetrable territory – will result in ultimate military victory. Yet
history teaches us that war is rarely so simple. Instead, victory is determined by the extent to which a nation’s military has become westernized. The western militaries are technologically advanced due to the fruits of secular research. Their group discipline is more cohesive, thanks to a consensual society. Their superior logistical efficiency derives from free market capitalism. And their flexibility is the dividend of constant public audit
and private individualism. No Arab military enjoys such advantages, despite advantages in numbers and natural resources. If the Arabs truly desire military parity with Israel, they should establish their own research programs immune to corruption, religion or political censure, and ensure that their students are mastering calculus rather than just the Koran.

We Americans are not ignorant of the recent past. Our nation was never a colonial power in the Middle East. Rather, we developed ties there as a reaction to, not as a catalyst of, the region’s complex history. No one doubts that Israel was created in large part as a reaction to events in twentieth century Europe. Yet it is Europe, not the U.S., which stands ready to abandon Israel at its moment of greatest need. The twentieth century has
taught Americans that some Europeans, given the opportunity, would gladly assist in annihilating millions of Jews, Gypsies and others. Many more Europeans would prove unwilling or unable to act against those who perpetrated the holocaust. We Americans therefore sensed, correctly, that the first three Arab-Israeli wars were fought not to return the West Bank, but to finish off what Hitler could not. And we now suspect that, while hundreds of
millions of Arabs of good conscience would accept a permanent Israel within its 1967 borders, a few million would never do so. And those few would not necessarily be restrained by those who did ultimately accept the existence of the Jewish state.

Somehow, we in the American heartland sense that Israel, by virtue of its economic success, its free society and its liberal press, is a wound to the Arab psyche. Israel does not threaten the material condition of the Arab world. Israel did not murder Kurds and Shiites – Saddam Hussein did that. Israel does not butcher Islam’s children in Algeria – the repressive and undemocratic Algerian government did that. Israel did not kill over a
million young Iranian men on the Iran-Iraq border – Khomenei did that. Israel did not erase from the face of the earth entire villages and their living inhabitants in Syria – Assad did that. Israel did not turn parts of Cairo, once a gleaming city of great historical importance, into virtual open sewers – the corrupt, incompetent Mubarak regime did that. Yet both the victims and the perpetrators of these crimes against Muslims answer
'Israel' to every problem. But Americans, more than any other people in history, live in the present, not the past. We loathe scapegoating, and we abhor the cult of victimization. We are tired of those, both here and abroad, who increasingly blame others for their own self-induced pathologies.

Europeans are far more cynical. Tel Aviv may reflect Europe’s liberal values far more than Cairo or Damascus. Yet we hear little from London, Paris or Rome that is not calibrated in terms of financial gain or avoiding trouble. In that sense, Israel is simply a very bad deal for them. Europe’s Middle Eastern policy is based upon little more than naked self-interest. If Israel were wiped out tomorrow, Europeans would ask for a brief moment of
silence, then sigh with relief, and without a blink would roll up their sleeves to get back to business.

America’s idiosyncratic support for Israel says something about ourselves rather than just our ally. Maybe the Europeans are right that there is nothing much to gain in a tangible sense from aiding Israel. By helping a few million, we may sacrifice the friendship of a billion. When we offend the Israelis, they snub us. But when we offend the Muslim world, terrorists engineer mass slaughter in Manhattan. Despite occasional disagreements with
the Israeli government of the day, no American fears that a frenzied Israeli will hijack an American plane or murder hundreds of Marines in their sleep with a truck bomb. No Jews ever complain of the billions we have lavished upon Mubarak, Arafat and the Jordanian monarchy. And Israel, which lacks the cash reserves of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, does not go on buying sprees in the U.S. or import entire American industries. So our reasons for choosing
whom to support says a great deal about Europe and the United States.

Instead of voicing despair about American support of Israel, Palestinian Arabs should see in America their greatest hope. Our support of Israel is based upon disinterested values with the capacity to evolve, rather than upon static considerations such as race, religion and language that lack the ability to ever change. If the Palestinians wish to even the score with Israel in American eyes, they can do so – with regular, free and fair elections,
a free and unfettered press, broadcast media free of government control, an open and honest economy, and religious tolerance of Jews, Christians and others in their midst. Implementation of these measures would accomplish much. Suicide bombers and a duplicitous terrorist leader will accomplish nothing.

reply by
barb
3/15/2002 (20:22)
 reply top
another one Mesmart...

3/15/02 5:46 PM Mountain Standard Time
From: Kramden1019

WHY DOES THE U.S. SUPPORT ISRAEL

Why does the U.S. support Israel? It would certainly be easier not to. The Muslim world is constantly mystified as to why most Americans are sympathetic to Israel.

Some critics in the Middle East castigate our government and excuse 'the American people.' In the eyes of these critics, it just can't be possible that grassroots public opinion is reflected in our official policy. Other misinformed conspiracy theorists spin elaborate yarns involving the Mossad, CIA, Old Testament fundamentalists, international bankers, the Protocols hoax, Jewish control of Hollywood and the U.S. Congress, and so forth.

But the question remains: Why does an overwhelming majority of Americans -- between sixty and seventy percent of the electorate on a consistent basis -- support Israel’s right to exist? And why has this level of support maintained itself after the September 11 suicide attacks?

The answer can be found in values. Not in brainwashing, and not because of an innate affinity for a particular race or creed. The fact is, Israel is a democracy. Its enemies are not.

Much misinformation abounds on this subject. Of course we know that Libya, Syria, Iraq and Iran are brutal dictatorships. But even the less repressive Arab regimes such as Egypt, Morocco and Jordan are sorely lacking in true and free democracy. Their candidates for 'parliament' are either screened, pre-selected, or coerced to toe the party line. Any opposition candidate who dares to speak out is jailed or silenced. Print and broadcast media are
subject to restrictions, censorship or state control. 'Elected' leaders are almost never open to public audit, censure or serious criticism. There is a reason, after all, why in the last decade Americans have dealt with Labor and Likud governments in Israel, but no one other than Arafat on behalf of the Palestinians, the Hashemite monarchs in Jordan, Mubarak in Egypt, the Assads in Syria, etc. Only death -- not free and fair elections -- brings a
change of government in the Arab world.

The 'Arab street' responds that it is the responsibility of the U.S., which gives billions to Egypt, Palestine, Jordan, Afghanistan and other Muslim regimes, to use its influence to instill democracy. Yet we rarely have such power to engineer sweeping constitutional reform, despite our troops stationed in the Gulf and our shameful dependency on the Saudi oil barons. True freedom is brought not by external pressure from the U.S., but by the blood
and courage of native patriots, together with at least some modicum of cultural tolerance, widespread literacy, and free markets. Let an Arab George Washington, Thomas Jefferson or Tom Paine rise up against repression. Only then might we see a new birth of freedom in the Arab world.

Moreover, we also give billions to Israel. Yet we have little control over whether they wish to elect a Rabin or a Sharon.

Israel is also a secular state. The ultra-Orthodox do not run the government unless they command a majority of the voters, which is wholly unlikely. Americans have always harbored suspicion of anyone who nods violently while reading Scripture, whether in madrasses, the local church, or before the Wailing Wall. In Israel, however, Americans sense that free speech and liberality of custom and religion are more ubiquitous than, say, in Saudi Arabia,
Iran or Palestine. Thus, Americans surmise that the Jewish state is more akin to the nations of Western Europe than to those of Muslim fundamentalists.

Pluralism exists in Israel, but rarely so in the Arab world. Israel has a dovish peace party, a spirited debate between Left and Right, and strong opinions in favor and against those who have established settlements outside the 1967 borders. Judaism itself is fissured by a variety of splinter orthodoxies, yet we see no gunfights among them. Many Israeli Jews are openly agnostic and atheist, yet they enjoy influence in Israeli culture, politics and
academia. In the Arab and Muslim world, such parallels are rarely if ever seen. Heretical mullahs may be heretical in London, Paris and New York, but not in Teheran or among the Taliban. No Palestinian will dare appear on CNN to call for Arafat's resignation. His opposition rests among bombers, not debaters.

Israeli newspapers reflect a diversity of views, from rabid Zionism to almost suicidal pacifism. The Israeli parliament includes several legislators of Arab descent. Indeed, the Sharon government itself includes two Arab cabinet ministers. Plenty of left-wing Jewish intellectuals openly write and broadcast their views in opposition to the particular government of the day. Is that liberality ever true in Palestine? Can a Palestinian, Egyptian or
Syrian novelist freely write something favorable about Golda Meir or something hostile to Assad or Mubarak? Can a Muslim author craft a satire about Islam? Past experience suggests that such critics would be met with fatwas and assassination attempts at best. Sure, the Palestinian spokesmen can be vocal and unbridled on American television, but only when they are being critical of the U.S. and Israel. Their free-wheeling invective is rarely
directed at Arafat’s authority.

Israel’s free, pluralistic and democratic society extends to all its citizens – Jew and Gentile alike. In particular, over one million Israelis of Arab origin – Muslim, Christian and Druze – enjoy the benefits of Israeli citizenship. Israeli Arabs vote, serve in Parliament and other political offices, own real estate, operate businesses, publish literary works, teach in schools and universities, practice law, medicine and other professions,
and serve in the military and police forces. The Israeli Defense Force includes thousands of proud, loyal Arab citizens of Israel among its ranks. Recently, four Israeli servicemen of Arab origin -- an Army Major, a Sergeant and two enlisted men – were brutally murdered by their Palestinian 'brothers' in an unprovoked attack on the Israel/Gaza border. The four were mourned as heroes and buried with full military honors. One of the four soldiers
was a distant cousin of Omar Souaid, another Arab Israeli soldier of Muslim faith who was kidnapped and executed last year, along with two Jewish compatriots, by the Hezbollah butchers in Lebanon. Hezbollah has cynically refused to turn over the desecrated remains of Lieutenant Souaid to his grieving mother, thereby preventing this fine man of blessed memory from even receiving a proper Muslim burial. So much for 'Islamic solidarity.'

Americans also admire Israeli ingenuity – both technological and cultural. Israel’s achievements are not reflective of genes, but rather of the culture of freedom. Surely there are thousands of brilliant, educated and talented Palestinian Arabs. But in the conditions of the Middle East, they have little opportunity for free expression or to operate a business or profession without government bribes or tribal payoffs. The result is that even
American farmers in central California are constantly amazed by Israeli drip-irrigation devices, sophisticated water pumps and other ingenious agricultural appurtenances. We see no such inventiveness from the citizens of Algeria, Qatar and Abu Dhabi.

There is also an affinity between the Israeli and Western militaries that transcends mere official exchanges and commercial arms sales. We do not see goose-stepping soldiers in Haifa as we do in Baghdad. The troops in Tel Aviv do not wear hoods or strap plastic explosives to their clothing. Nor do Israeli presidents carry sidearms to the United Nations, strut around in plastic sunglasses, or pin to their chests the cheap, tawdry medals reminiscent
of Stalinist Russia. Young, rank-and-file Israeli men and women enjoy a familiarity among one another, and their officers are more akin to our own army than to Hamas, Islamic Jihad or the Iraqi Republican Guard.

The Israelis also far better reflect the abject lethality of the Western way of war. Here perhaps lies the greatest misunderstanding of military history on the part of the Arab world. The 'Arab street' foolishly believes that sheer numbers and real estate – two hundred million Arabs, a billion Muslims, a century of oil reserves and millions of square miles of seemingly impenetrable territory – will result in ultimate military victory. Yet
history teaches us that war is rarely so simple. Instead, victory is determined by the extent to which a nation’s military has become westernized. The western militaries are technologically advanced due to the fruits of secular research. Their group discipline is more cohesive, thanks to a consensual society. Their superior logistical efficiency derives from free market capitalism. And their flexibility is the dividend of constant public audit
and private individualism. No Arab military enjoys such advantages, despite advantages in numbers and natural resources. If the Arabs truly desire military parity with Israel, they should establish their own research programs immune to corruption, religion or political censure, and ensure that their students are mastering calculus rather than just the Koran.

We Americans are not ignorant of the recent past. Our nation was never a colonial power in the Middle East. Rather, we developed ties there as a reaction to, not as a catalyst of, the region’s complex history. No one doubts that Israel was created in large part as a reaction to events in twentieth century Europe. Yet it is Europe, not the U.S., which stands ready to abandon Israel at its moment of greatest need. The twentieth century has
taught Americans that some Europeans, given the opportunity, would gladly assist in annihilating millions of Jews, Gypsies and others. Many more Europeans would prove unwilling or unable to act against those who perpetrated the holocaust. We Americans therefore sensed, correctly, that the first three Arab-Israeli wars were fought not to return the West Bank, but to finish off what Hitler could not. And we now suspect that, while hundreds of
millions of Arabs of good conscience would accept a permanent Israel within its 1967 borders, a few million would never do so. And those few would not necessarily be restrained by those who did ultimately accept the existence of the Jewish state.

Somehow, we in the American heartland sense that Israel, by virtue of its economic success, its free society and its liberal press, is a wound to the Arab psyche. Israel does not threaten the material condition of the Arab world. Israel did not murder Kurds and Shiites – Saddam Hussein did that. Israel does not butcher Islam’s children in Algeria – the repressive and undemocratic Algerian government did that. Israel did not kill over a
million young Iranian men on the Iran-Iraq border – Khomenei did that. Israel did not erase from the face of the earth entire villages and their living inhabitants in Syria – Assad did that. Israel did not turn parts of Cairo, once a gleaming city of great historical importance, into virtual open sewers – the corrupt, incompetent Mubarak regime did that. Yet both the victims and the perpetrators of these crimes against Muslims answer
'Israel' to every problem. But Americans, more than any other people in history, live in the present, not the past. We loathe scapegoating, and we abhor the cult of victimization. We are tired of those, both here and abroad, who increasingly blame others for their own self-induced pathologies.

Europeans are far more cynical. Tel Aviv may reflect Europe’s liberal values far more than Cairo or Damascus. Yet we hear little from London, Paris or Rome that is not calibrated in terms of financial gain or avoiding trouble. In that sense, Israel is simply a very bad deal for them. Europe’s Middle Eastern policy is based upon little more than naked self-interest. If Israel were wiped out tomorrow, Europeans would ask for a brief moment of
silence, then sigh with relief, and without a blink would roll up their sleeves to get back to business.

America’s idiosyncratic support for Israel says something about ourselves rather than just our ally. Maybe the Europeans are right that there is nothing much to gain in a tangible sense from aiding Israel. By helping a few million, we may sacrifice the friendship of a billion. When we offend the Israelis, they snub us. But when we offend the Muslim world, terrorists engineer mass slaughter in Manhattan. Despite occasional disagreements with
the Israeli government of the day, no American fears that a frenzied Israeli will hijack an American plane or murder hundreds of Marines in their sleep with a truck bomb. No Jews ever complain of the billions we have lavished upon Mubarak, Arafat and the Jordanian monarchy. And Israel, which lacks the cash reserves of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, does not go on buying sprees in the U.S. or import entire American industries. So our reasons for choosing
whom to support says a great deal about Europe and the United States.

Instead of voicing despair about American support of Israel, Palestinian Arabs should see in America their greatest hope. Our support of Israel is based upon disinterested values with the capacity to evolve, rather than upon static considerations such as race, religion and language that lack the ability to ever change. If the Palestinians wish to even the score with Israel in American eyes, they can do so – with regular, free and fair elections,
a free and unfettered press, broadcast media free of government control, an open and honest economy, and religious tolerance of Jews, Christians and others in their midst. Implementation of these measures would accomplish much. Suicide bombers and a duplicitous terrorist leader will accomplish nothing.

reply by
barb
3/15/2002 (22:20)
 reply top
3/15/02 8:09 PM Mountain Standard Time
From: Drjabeles

There is a long history of anti-Jewish and anti-Christian action and attitudes among the Muslims for centuries, with a few interruptions for expediency, as in part of the Isalmic era in Spain...Even before the Crusades, the Jihad had begun from 650 AD, as the Islamic conquests of Asia Minor, Southern Europe and elsewhere progressed.... Read 'Jihad' by Paul Fregosi... Very revealing....' Even though the Jihad -the
Muslim Holy War against Christians and other faiths, including Judaism -- has raged in the Middle East, Europe, Africa and Asia for over 1,300 years and now has reached the Americas, it remains the most unrecorded and disregarded major event in history.' Israel is merely a non-Islamic spur in the Jihad's side. World conversion to Islam and Islamic law by force or death is the objective. We ignore it at our peril.