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Fisk Paints a Middle
East in CRISIS
By ABC Australia 03/06/06
Robert
Fisk says that in his three decades of reporting from
the Middle East he's never seen it more dangerous, and
that
he's certain another major crisis, possibly
even another September 11, is
coming.
The World Today - Monday, 6 March , 2006
12:34:00
Reporter:
Eleanor Hall
ELEANOR HALL: One of the
Middle East's most experienced observers is warning today that we
should prepare for another major catastrophe in the region.
Robert Fisk says that in his three decades of reporting from the Middle
East for British newspapers, he's never seen it more dangerous, and
that he's certain another major crisis, possibly even another September
11, is coming.
The veteran war reporter also says he remains baffled by just who is
trying to generate civil war in Iraq.
Robert Fisk is in Australia this week to promote his latest book, The
Great War for Civilization, and he joined me in The World Today studio
a short time ago.
Now, you've been a bit of an optimist about Iraq and civil war, but do
you think what's going on now is already civil war?
ROBERT FISK: Well, it's perfect proof that somebody wants a civil war.
Um, but the problem for me is that the narrative is that the Shi'ites
are being attacked by the Sunnis and their mosques are being blown up
and now the Shi'ites are attacking the Sunni mosques and the Shi'ites
and the Sunnis are going to fight each other.
I think that's far too simple a version of events. There's never been a
civil war in Iraq. Sunnis and Shi'ites, despite the fact that the
Sunnis as a minority have always effectively ruled Iraq, have never had
this sectarian instinct. It's not a sectarian society, it's a tribal
society. People are intermarried.
You know, I was at the funeral of a Sunni and asked his brother, you
know, he'd been murdered - probably by Shi'ites, I think - I asked his
brother if there was going to be a civil war and he said look, I'm
married to a Shi'ite. You want me to kill my wife? Why do you
westerners always want civil war?
The first people to mention civil war were the occupation authorities.
The Iraqis were not. Some…
ELEANOR HALL: But the Iraqis are now. I mean, Al-Jaafari's talking
about civil war.
ROBERT FISK: They're not talking about civil war, they're talking about
being frightened of who's doing the bombing. But, you see, we still
don't know who's doing the bombings. How many names have we been given
of the suicide bombers? Two out of, what, 320 suicide bombings now.
Where do they come from, these people?
I mean, we keep hearing about kidnaps. In every case they were
kidnapped by people, quote, "wearing police uniforms," unquote. There's
a police station on the airport road, it was overrun and all the
policemen executed by men wearing, quote, "army uniforms," unquote.
Now, we used to have this phenomenon in Algeria, when I was covering
the Islamist government war there, and it took a while before we
realised that they were policemen and they were soldiers.
In other words, they were being paid by the authorities. These were not
people… there's not a huge wardrobe factory in Fallujah with, you know,
8,000 policemen's uniforms, waiting for the next suicide bomber. It's
not like that. What we've got is death squads, and some of them are
clearly working for government institutions within Baghdad.
ELEANOR HALL: So you're saying there are death squads, there's chaos,
but it's not civil war?
ROBERT FISK: Well, it's certainly chaos, and it's certainly death
squads. But I don't regard this as a civil war at the moment. As I
said, somebody wants a civil war. I mean, if you really try hard and
you kill enough people you may be able to produce this.
ELEANOR HALL: So somebody wants a civil war?
ROBERT FISK: Yes.
ELEANOR HALL: You must have some clues about who.
ROBERT FISK: I don't have… I have suspicions, I don't have clues. I
spend a lot of time, when I'm in Baghdad, trying to find out who this
is and what this is. Clearly, the Interior Ministry have been torturing
people to death, and clearly the Interior Ministry have people who do
operate death squads.
But you've got to remember something, that a very prominent figure in
politics, and a close friend of the United States, was accused just
before the first elections of executing, quote, "insurgents," unquote,
in a police station, a police station I know very well. This was
reported in Australia at the time.
I suspect the story is true. I think he was a murderer, and he was
working for the Americans, and he was a former CIA operative, as we
know. I'm not saying the CIA are doing the death squads and this is an
American plot - no, I'm not.
But I think that there are all kinds of tendencies and fractures within
the current authorities, who all live in the green zone in the former
Republican palace of Saddam, surrounded by American barbed wire and
American protection.
ELEANOR HALL: What's the rationale of this though? I mean, if these
people are in government, why do they want a civil war?
ROBERT FISK: I think what they want to do is to produce a situation in
which their side, or their party, will control Iraq.
You've got to realise the insurgents too, most of whom but not all are
Sunni, we keep seeing the insurgents as people who want to get the
Americans out. But that's a very short-sighted view of it. That's our
view of it.
It's quite clear the insurgents want to get the Americans out, but they
want to get the Americans out so they can say afterwards, we liberated
our country, we want a place in power. That is what this is about. This
is about securing political power after the withdrawal of the United
States.
ELEANOR HALL: What about the political negotiations that are going on
at the moment though? I mean, is there no faith placed in those?
ROBERT FISK: Look, I'm sorry to sound so pessimistic, but all the
political negotiations are going on within a few square acres, guarded
by American tanks, from which nobody emerges. These people who are
negotiating, they don't go into the streets of Baghdad, they don't see
the people, they don't see the bombs.
ELEANOR HALL: But the people voted for them.
ROBERT FISK: Yes, the Shi'ites voted for them mostly.
Look, people want to vote. People would like freedom. But they'd also
freedom from us, and that we will not accept, because we want to go on
controlling Iraq and making sure Iraq does what we want. We want to
control the government of Iraq.
I mean, they have a democratic election, and what happens? Bush comes
on the telephone and says come on, we want some unity, get moving.
ELEANOR HALL: You say the US will have to get out of Iraq, but it will
need the help of Iran and Syria to do so…
ROBERT FISK: Of course, of course it will.
ELEANOR HALL: Now, how would that work?
ROBERT FISK: It'll need the help of Iran to make sure that all Shi'ite
resistance to the United States ends during the withdrawal, and it'll
need the help of the Syrians, who do have a lot of influence along the
border with Iraq, to make sure that there is some kind of deal with the
insurgents that the Americans can leave not under fire.
You see, I mean I've said this before, but the terrible equation, of
course politically, from an American political point of view as well,
in Iraq, is that the Americans must leave, and they will leave, and
they can't leave.
And that's the equation that turns sand into blood. And that remains
the case. It's very easy to invade other people's countries; it's very
difficult to get out of them. It should be the other way around, but
unfortunately it's not. That's how it happens.
And the Brits found that, you know, all over the Middle East. And every
time, every time, every time the authorities of the occupying power say
the same things - we will not talk to terrorists. The Americans say it
too. And they don't read history books, because at the end of the day
the Americans will have to talk to the insurgents in Iraq, and they
will, they will.
ELEANOR HALL: Now, the victory for Hamas, in the Palestinian elections,
how closely is the West's reaction to this being watched in the Arab
world?
ROBERT FISK: With its usual cynicism, yes. It's the same old story - we
demand democracy, we demand they have freedom to vote, and they vote
for the wrong people, so we try to destroy the government that's been
freely elected. We love democracy, providing the Muslim nations elect
the people we want.
I mean, we keep hearing the Israelis will not deal with Hamas. The
Israelis created Hamas. When the PLO were in Beirut, and the Israelis
wanted to counteract the PLO, they urged Hamas to set up more mosques
and social institutions in Gaza.
Even after Oslo a senior Israeli officer, and this was reported on the
front page of The Jerusalem Post, held official talks with Hamas
officials in Jerusalem. Israel won't deal with Hamas… this is just a
facade of narrative, for us, the press.
There is a narrative being set down for us where there will not be
negotiations, but there can be any time the Israelis want, and if they
find it in their interest, they will.
ELEANOR HALL: And yet you're in no doubt that Hamas, or certain members
of Hamas, are terrorists?
ROBERT FISK: Look, I don't use the word terrorist about anybody. This
has become a semantically meaningless word. Look, there are people in
the Hamas movement who support the murder of innocent people, yes, of
course.
There are… I'm not trying to make equivalences here, but when you have
an Israeli air force officer, as we did at one occasion in Gaza, who
bombs a block of apartments, knowing that he will kill innocent
children, as well as a man who is believed to be behind suicide
bombings, what is that man? What goes on in his brain too?
ELEANOR HALL: Now, you make the point in your book about the targeted
killing of Hamas leaders coming back …
ROBERT FISK: The murder. I don't say targeted killing.
ELEANOR HALL: Okay.
ROBERT FISK: The murder.
ELEANOR HALL: The killing of leaders of Hamas will come back to haunt
the leaders of the West. What do you mean…
ROBERT FISK: Well, we already did have - a year and a half ago I think
- the murder of an Israeli Government minister in Jerusalem.
Um, you see, once you start going for leaderships, you're opening a
door that can come back at you. And the great danger is once you say,
you know, we might kill Yasser Arafat, well he died of his own accord,
but I mean that was constantly said, so then you open the door to
someone saying well, let's kill the Israeli leadership, or let's kill
the British leadership.
Once you say we're going to kill Osama Bin Laden, what does that allow
him to do? He doesn't need permission of course. But what doors are you
opening…
ELEANOR HALL: Aren't these doors already open?
ROBERT FISK: Oh, they've been opened now, yes.
ELEANOR HALL: But weren't they already open for people like…
ROBERT FISK: The moment we turned our back on international law and
gave up on justice and wanted revenge, that was the end.
ELEANOR HALL: Now, you describe in your book, you were there for Rafiq
Hariri's killing in Lebanon…
ROBERT FISK: I was 400 metres away, yes.
ELEANOR HALL: After that you write you're increasingly stunned by the
growing tragedy of the Middle East. Now, I would've thought that's a
big statement from someone who's been reporting from the Middle East
for 30 years.
ROBERT FISK: Yes, but the Middle East has never been in such a terrible
situation, it's never been so dangerous. I've never found myself going
on assignments of such danger as I do now. Iraq's the worst assignment
I've ever been on, ever.
I think that our hypocrisy towards the Middle East, and the
ruthlessness of its own leaders, Arab leaders, has reached such a stage
now that there's some kind of… I mean, some kind of explosion is going
to come.
Over… I did a CBC interview in Toronto, which I've got a copy of, three
years before 2001, and I said an explosion is coming. And obviously…
ELEANOR HALL: But do you think an explosion is still coming?
ROBERT FISK: Oh yes. I don't… it doesn't have to be a real physical one
like 'bang'. It might be. But something is coming. I mean, I feel it
very strongly.
When I go back, when I went back for the book, I realised I was feeling
it because I live there, I live in a Muslim society, I live in the
Middle East, and all the people around me are Muslims.
And, clearly, living there, breathing that environment, I knew
something was going to happen. And I still think something's going to
happen. I don't mean September 11, but something.
ELEANOR HALL: But like what?
ROBERT FISK: Well, I mean, the Americans being driven out of Iraq is
one, isn't it?
ELEANOR HALL: But if the Americans leave Iraq the suggestion is that
that will create more stability there. Is that not likely to…
ROBERT FISK: Well, I hope it would, yes. Um, yeah but, you see, if the
Americans leave Iraq it's an enormous blow to US military and political
and strategic prestige throughout the world, there's no doubt about it.
ELEANOR HALL: So you've been warned. That's the Middle East
Correspondent for the British newspaper, The Independent, Robert Fisk,
who's been reporting on the Middle East for 30 years and is in
Australia this week to promote his latest book, The Great War for
Civilization. He was speaking to me earlier this morning.
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March 2006
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The Harvard Study, now sans the Harvard seal and with an extra disclaimer, has generated considerable debate and interest. The following exchanges have much useful and interesting information...
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When Hollywood celebrity Charlie Sheen came out last week the events of 9/11 and since have come under a greater 'credibility gap' than ever. This review of all the doubt from the current issue of New York Magazine is a very useful and interesting article, even if the skepticism is considerable, some parts quite incomplete, and the focus not always clear. But it sure makes for good weekend reading! And if you missed it a few days ago read the MER Editorial and review in "The Mother of all Hoaxes? Part II."
Israel - Next Target of al-Qaida? (March 23, 2006)
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The Mother of all Hoaxes? Part II (March 22, 2006)
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'The Israel Lobby' on the Haaretz Editorial Page (March 22, 2006)
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The Jewish-Israeli Lobby (March 18, 2006)
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Princeton University Forum Transcript - Anne-Marie Slaughter, Cornell West, Mark Bruzonsky (March 11, 2006)
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Major CRISIS Now Ahead Predicts Fisk (March 9, 2006)
Robert Fisk says that in his three decades of reporting from the Middle East he's never seen it more dangerous, and that he's certain another major crisis, possibly even another September 11, is coming.
India-U.S.-Turkey-Israel Alliance as U.S. Bulks Up For Further Middle East War (March 8, 2006)
"If this nuclear deal [with India] stands, the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty is going to fall. The president has just blasted a huge hole through the framework that his predecessors worked for over 30, 40 years to help build up."
Dispossessing, Controlling, and Permanently Subjugating the PALESTINIAN PEOPLE (March 7, 2006)
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Sunday night in a sense telecasts the new language far and wide --
no real state, no real homeland, nothing even close to self-determination
but rather permanent dispossession and in effect imprisonment on the
now scattered, divided, controlled and individually cut-off 'territories'.
JEWISH HOLLYWOOD - Paradise Now and Munich both lost and 'minimized' (March 6, 2006)
Not only does the powerful American Jewish community enjoy wielding its power on both coasts in the USA these days but it has a closer than ever working alliance with Israel's leading newspaper, Ha'aretz, as well. And that's where this take on what happened last night was nearly instantly published -- clearly with advance understanding and preparations for what happened just a few hours ago in considerably Jewish Hollywood.
IRAN STRIKE PLANS ESCALATING FAST (March 5, 2006)
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'Jordan Is Palestine' Rebirthing (March 3, 2006)
The Israelis won't say it in public, but the realities of their actual geopolitical strategy, as well as their 'Revisionist Zionist' ideology, are that when the day comes that they can manage it they will manuever world events, U.S. policies, and through the Americans at least the Europeans and the U.N., so that what was once called 'Transjordan' will become known as the 'Palestinian State'.
New America Sets The New Middle East Negotiations Date On-The-Make (March 1, 2006)
To put things in perspective, the New America Foundation moved in to town a few years ago after the Bush/Cheney takeover trying to establish a kind of new centrist block in modern-day Rome. On the whole New America types are too smart and internationalist to be Bush/Cheney/Neocons, too patriotic to want to be part of an American super-nova eclipse which they fear is underway, yet too compromised, power hungry, and on-the-make to be trusted by the rest of us.
For persons in Florida and California (March 1, 2006)
West Palm Beach, Ft. Lauderdale, and Naples FLORIDA -
Santa Barbara and Los Angeles CALIFORNIA -
If you are in or near any of these cities and would like to meet in person with MER Publisher Mark Bruzonsky soon please email to MER@MiddleEast.Org with your name and phone numbers(including cellphone) and with brief information about yourself. .
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